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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #54347
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Posted: Tue 2008-03-11 05:31
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United States |
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| Is humanity redeemable? |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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*Note to certain people: keep this thread clean of flame war-ism.*
Currently, human civilization is roughly ten thousand years old. We have socially evolved from tribalism to globalization. We've invented incredible things, and destroyed many too. We have made extinct many creatures of this world. And now, we are only decades to centuries away from exploring our solar system, and the galaxy even.
An asteroid is heading towards Earth, an asteroid which, once it hits, it would definitely drive many more creatures extinct, create a long-lasting global winter, and lead to the destruction of settled area across the world.
Now, imagine God (for the sake of argument, assume he's not one of our religious gods, and that he is perfect, and has never made a mistake; if you try to debate "Why should I have to prove anything to God who isn't here for us" you'll ruin the point of this scenario) appears to everyone on Earth, and offers to get rid of the asteroid, but on one condition:
You must prove humanity is worth redeeming and entitled to a future.
What would you guys say?
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Chatelle
Outer Party
Post #54405
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Posted: Sat 2008-03-15 07:32
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Sweden |
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I'd suggest a more rational force of dissolving everything to pieces, but that's just me. A black hole would be fun. The asteroid thing is getting old.
Then I'd like to point out to this God that as we are immortal beyond the material world, it doesn't matter what happens since we take our knowledge wherever we go. We don't have anything to prove since everyone is on such a different level of learning in life, therefore it's impossible to judge the whole group into abyss straight away. "If You strike us, don't forget that there's never been an evil force who made us incapable of love, instead the the evil formed a better good will and a heart closer to the Great Spirit".
Oh my, it sounds too positive for my part. I stick with the idea anyways. You can be cynic about anything in life, and dislike our community to pieces - but life in itself is a positive thing, right? I understand more than ever the fun part of being materialized, it's hard to gain the same knowledge when you're a formable spirit. Sure, you can take as many forms as you like, but you don't get to enjoy a warm touch the same way you do with your physical body. Life IS fun. End of story.
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #54408
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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Posted: Sat 2008-03-15 07:59
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| Politics: Oligarchical Collectivist |
Country: United States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Chatelle wrote: |
| I'd suggest a more rational force of dissolving everything to pieces, but that's just me. A black hole would be fun. The asteroid thing is getting old. |
I used the concept of an asteroid because it's probably much more likely we'll be hit by one than be in the middle of a black hole. But of course, if changing the nature of the antagonist object helps you visualize this scenario, I see no reason to stop you.
| Chatelle wrote: |
| Then I'd like to point out to this God that as we are immortal beyond the material world, it doesn't matter what happens since we take our knowledge wherever we go. We don't have anything to prove since everyone is on such a different level of learning in life, therefore it's impossible to judge the whole group into abyss straight away. "If You strike us, don't forget that there's never been an evil force who made us incapable of love, instead the the evil formed a better good will and a heart closer to the Great Spirit". |
That's an interesting way of answering the God-being, but it wasn't quite what I meant. Basically, I see you're saying something like: "corporeal life ending is natural". So, in your opinion, how can we build a case humanity deserves to exist? Try this time by being materialistic; i.e. avoiding theistic answers.
| Chatelle wrote: |
| Oh my, it sounds too positive for my part. I stick with the idea anyways. You can be cynic about anything in life, and dislike our community to pieces - but life in itself is a positive thing, right? I understand more than ever the fun part of being materialized, it's hard to gain the same knowledge when you're a formable spirit. Sure, you can take as many forms as you like, but you don't get to enjoy a warm touch the same way you do with your physical body. Life IS fun. End of story. |
Life is certainly interesting, Em.
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orwelliantherye
Filthy Animal
Post #54417
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
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Posted: Sat 2008-03-15 14:58
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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| Re: Is humanity redeemable? |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Mister Mephistopheles wrote: |
*Note to certain people: keep this thread clean of flame war-ism.*
Currently, human civilization is roughly ten thousand years old. We have socially evolved from tribalism to globalization. We've invented incredible things, and destroyed many too. We have made extinct many creatures of this world. And now, we are only decades to centuries away from exploring our solar system, and the galaxy even.
An asteroid is heading towards Earth, an asteroid which, once it hits, it would definitely drive many more creatures extinct, create a long-lasting global winter, and lead to the destruction of settled area across the world.
Now, imagine God (for the sake of argument, assume he's not one of our religious gods, and that he is perfect, and has never made a mistake; if you try to debate "Why should I have to prove anything to God who isn't here for us" you'll ruin the point of this scenario) appears to everyone on Earth, and offers to get rid of the asteroid, but on one condition:
You must prove humanity is worth redeeming and entitled to a future.
What would you guys say? |
I went to a play in Door County (FYI, It was Belgians in Heaven, and I saw it three times) which had very much the same premise, where the Earth was to be demolished to make way for an amusement park (Six Flags over Purgatory), and St. Peter was trying to stall the decision until two Belgian-American farmer brothers (a hard worker and a slacker) could learn to get along, and they were to be the proof.
Now for my personal opinion: At this point, I'm not sure whether humanity is truly worth redeeming. Yes, it has produced great accomplishments (both political and cultural), and there are some moments like the one listed above, but mankind is unique in that it is so disturbingly violent towards not only other creatures, but its own species. After all, watch an episode of Most Evil and compare that to what you know about nature. Other species may kill for defense, competition, and substenance, but Humans are the only species which can kill solely for pleasure. (what fools these mortals be). Of course, this could be what virtually every online test I've taken has labeled Bipolar Disorder talking.
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| Rev. Ted Haggard wrote: |
| If you only read the books I read and met the scientists I know, then you would be great like me. As you age you'll find yourself right on some things and wrong on some other things, but please, in the process, don't be arrogant. |
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TheBiggerTheLie
Junior Spy
Post #55293
Joined: 25 Oct 2005
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Posted: Sun 2008-05-11 01:44
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i'd say no, humans aren't entitled to a future. get rid of them before they start fucking up the rest of "god's creation" . For the sake of the hypothesis made, i'd like god to rethink the whole human experiment and perhaps start over again. CTRL-ALT-DEL.
A meteorite is just what we need to get our humility levels back to ground zero. bring it on and turn us into the fossil fuels we've raped half the planet for in the last 2 centuries - after all, 'you are what you eat'. perhaps we will fuel the spaceships of the next human civilization...
that would be my one elegant hope. |
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Beautiful Humdrum
Outer Party
Post #55295
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Posted: Sun 2008-05-11 02:33
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| Politics: Satanist |
Country: Third Reich |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Short answer: No.
| TheBiggerTheLie wrote: |
| i'd say no, humans aren't entitled to a future. get rid of them before they start fucking up the rest of "god's creation" . For the sake of the hypothesis made, i'd like god to rethink the whole human experiment and perhaps start over again. CTRL-ALT-DEL. |
Maybe, if there is a god, get him to disallow Humans from thinking about religion.
| Quote: |
A meteorite is just what we need to get our humility levels back to ground zero. bring it on and turn us into the fossil fuels we've raped half the planet for in the last 2 centuries - after all, 'you are what you eat'. perhaps we will fuel the spaceships of the next human civilization...
that would be my one elegant hope. |
And indeed, well-stated.
| Rye wrote: |
| I went to a play in Door County (FYI, It was Belgians in Heaven, and I saw it three times) which had very much the same premise, where the Earth was to be demolished to make way for an amusement park (Six Flags over Purgatory), and St. Peter was trying to stall the decision until two Belgian-American farmer brothers (a hard worker and a slacker) could learn to get along, and they were to be the proof. |
That is a truly kickass concept. "Six Flags over Purgatory" should happen. Come on, they need something to keep 'em busy while they wait six billion years to work off that hooker.
| Quote: |
| Now for my personal opinion: At this point, I'm not sure whether humanity is truly worth redeeming. Yes, it has produced great accomplishments (both political and cultural), and there are some moments like the one listed above, but mankind is unique in that it is so disturbingly violent towards not only other creatures, but its own species. |
Indeed. Not to mention, abusive to ourselves as individuals. You ever seen a capybara cut his wrist, or a peccary smoke crack? And, hell, they don't have American Gladiators.
| Quote: |
| After all, watch an episode of Most Evil and compare that to what you know about nature. Other species may kill for defense, competition, and substenance, but Humans are the only species which can kill solely for pleasure. |
Also, the only ones who seem to kill each other.
| Quote: |
| (what fools these mortals be). |
| Quote: |
| Of course, this could be what virtually every online test I've taken has labeled Bipolar Disorder talking. |
Emphasis on "online test" - you probably aren't. People just suck ass.
| Quote: |
| I used the concept of an asteroid because it's probably much more likely we'll be hit by one than be in the middle of a black hole. But of course, if changing the nature of the antagonist object helps you visualize this scenario, I see no reason to stop you. |
Actually, a black hole would be fun, but I think I'd prefer some kind of disease, or us getting irradiated to shit. Let the asteroid come. I'd embrace the end of mankind as best a dead man would be able to.
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One Of The Few
Minister of Truth
Post #55304
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Posted: Sun 2008-05-11 11:57
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Scotland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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You'd be wasting your time either way. Any sentient thing which demands of another sentient thing a reason for the continuation of its sentience will probably just torture or kill you even if you did justify the continuation of your existence. It would be the equivalent of appealing to the sentiment of a psychopath.
I also don't agree with the basic Christian premise behind all this, ie. that absolute power gives you absolute moral authority. Power endows one with moral responsibility, but not moral authority; if I was in a position where I could kill you in a second, that would make me no more able to give you a morally binding command to suck my wang. Justice is NOT the advantage of the stronger.
Furthermore, I think the notion of "proof" in this scenario is impossible, because there are no established premises. What would proof entail? Scientific method is impossible in this situation. Appealing to sentiment is out of the window, since this god is clearly cold and lacking in (for lack of a better word) humanity. The only moral premise this god seems to have is that its total power comes with no moral responsibility and even if you did work from there to justify mankind, this premise makes any subsequent conclusions void.
Of course this all comes from my heathen outlook on life. If the gods are not just, then fuck the gods. As Plato said, the power of the gods over our lives does not give them the power to determine right or wrong; power is not the be-all and end-all of morality. That's why, when the story of the Gospel came to Europe, people laughed at Joseph: the idea of being trapped in celibacy while a god got it on with your wife was one that, to pagan (and dare I say, normal human) sentiments was one of ridicule, not of nobility. That same mindset denies any god, no matter how powerful, the right to demand of a sentient creature that it justify its right to exist. Better to be Adonis and killed by Ares in the form of a boar than to be a cuckolded celibate husband raising some sort of hybrid creature.
Finally consider this: would you WANT to live in a universe where the supreme, perfect being was such a complete and utter asshole? Would you really want to know that, at the end of the day, perfect knowledge had led this creature to the conclusion that might is right? I think death in these circumstances is vastly preferrable, since in death one could at least obtain a dignity which would be otherwise unavailable in such an amoral universe. Redemption is not possible in the face of such a monster, only damnation; nothingness to damnation.
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If you can't say what you mean then you'll never mean what you say
God holds no fears
Death no worries
And while good is readily attainable
Evil is readily endurable |
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Ling
Outer Party
Post #55305
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Posted: Sun 2008-05-11 14:51
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| Politics: Nihilism |
Country: Arrakis |
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I lean towards a 'no', unless humanity is willing to take a change in their inbred habits of exploiting the resources endlessly to the point of no-return and let Earth breathe and recover from its almost-fatal wounds. That would meant adopting the offline, compassionate, more tolerating and spititually holistic lifestyle. In my case, I speak from the point of view that humanity faces the doom that itself has slowly brewed over the years - ecological destruction/wars/social troubles etc.
In the case of an extraterristial incident like that asteriod, I would like to give a glimmer of hope to the world, you can't throw away a whole bunch of bananas for a few rotten bananas. Remember, most people aren't involved in social woes, they are just normal civilians doing their own shit, they are innocent. It is the few rotten bananas - big global superpowers, egoistic land-conquerers, capitalists, people with fucked up mentality that caused the crap that the whole world is facing now and in the near future.
Give the world a chance, unless they like the idea of mass-extinction.
- Ling 
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Death makes a prophet's voice louder. Martyrs are dangerous. - Chapterhouse Dune, Frank Herbert.
Kom
Del ditt hat med oss
Forlat ditt svake legeme
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Die Irae. Die Illa. Solvet Cosmos in Favilla. Vocamus te Aeshma-Deva.
Current State: Meditative. |
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
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Posted: Mon 2008-05-12 08:41
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Am I the only person here who's optimistic about the continued existence of the human race? I mean, we have accomplished so much in such a short period of time, especially since the Industrial Revolution. As one of the few species which can transcend their physical limitations using external objects, and the only species which can produce such startling technology, I think it would be a real pity to die to something as pitiful as an asteroid.
That said, because trying to argue that the continued existence of the human race is a bit of a mug's game, I'd be more inclined to try to argue on behalf of the other species on earth, those ones that have shown such stunning variation, those species which have specialised themselves so effectively - to let them all die due to the workings of some asshole god (oh, wait, I'm supposed to be arguing to that same vengeful god) would be a real tragedy, despite the fact that most species become extinct anyway.
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One Of The Few
Minister of Truth
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Posted: Tue 2008-05-13 10:39
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Scotland |
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| Mephis Ladder wrote: |
Demanding reasons for continuation, in addition to just about anything else, is the basis of philosophy. |
So if I see you hanging onto the edge of the cliff and ask you to justify the continuation of your life before I save you, I'm being philosophical about the matter? In such a situation, I think it is ethically not my place to make such demands upon you, it is my place to assist you as best as I can.
The fact is, normative philosophy seems to be very different from other forms of philosophy, primarily I think because it is the trunk of philosophy that gives all the branches purpose. Their utility comes out of their function towards other ends, but ethics derives its function from sentiment.
A philosopher might consider the utility of continuing a manner of scientific inquiry; he might consider the reasons for the continuation of the correlation of cause and effect, and so on. But one cannot equivocate such academic questioning with the practical situation of a life-or-death choice: firstly, it overlooks the moral obligation of the deity in question; secondly, any ethical claim is ultimately based on sentiment rather than on a natural fact, yet if this god is all knowing (ie. aware of all possible reasoning and moral facts) and still does not feel any obligation to assist, then it clearly lacks sentiment. If one lacks emotional sentiment, there can be no proper basis for one's normative views: in short, one is a psychopath. Why would you try to beg for your life to a psychopath?
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God holds no fears
Death no worries
And while good is readily attainable
Evil is readily endurable |
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TheBiggerTheLie
Junior Spy
Post #55454
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Posted: Wed 2008-05-14 02:59
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| RAK wrote: |
| Am I the only person here who's optimistic about the continued existence of the human race? I mean, we have accomplished so much in such a short period of time, especially since the Industrial Revolution. As one of the few species which can transcend their physical limitations using external objects, and the only species which can produce such startling technology, I think it would be a real pity to die to something as pitiful as an asteroid. |
Isnt the very essence of our great accomplishments in the industrial revolution (ie: oil) a product of such a "pitiful asteroid"?
Can we even comprehendthe magnitude of events that must have taken place millions of years ago to create the vast deposits of organic fossil fuel upon which our present society almost exclusively depends? The varied and specialised species whose accomplishments were suddenly transformed into oil by a "meteorite" back then may have regarded it as a pitiful way to go... but millions of years later we humans came along and erected an entire society thanks to that same event. Our achievements were only made possible by such a "meteorite"; which imo makes it poetic, rather than pitiful, for us to go out the same way.
The way I understood this thread is that the meteorite/asteroid is simply a metaphor for the hypothetical wrath of a hypothetical "god", and could be substituted, as implied by others, for any other environmental or divine phenomenon. I agree and suspect most of us "pessimists" would prefer humanity alone to be "punished" and for the rest of the species to remain on the course they were previously on. However, since we are in the process of playing God ourselves and wiping out said species (at a much faster rate than normal) I'd actually rather see a meteorite, instead of humanity, taking on the cleansing role.
True that we have recently accomplished so much, but this hasn't been done in a short period of time. What we have accomplished recently has been the exponential product of thousands of successful lives, lived out over millennia. the last couple of centuries have indeed seen the rapid development of incredible (and supposedly unprecedented) technology, but the manner in which this technology is employed and deployed is another matter entirely, which shouldn't be confused with the amazing quality of the technology in itself. If I believed humanity possessed the collective will to realise the ways in which technology could and should be used to feed, educate and sustain the people of the world so that we could explore space and live out our collective dream, I would be begging the hypothetical "god" to spare humanity from the hypothetical "meteorite".
The problem for me is I feel we're collectively so far down the wrong track that so much has to be UNdone before we could prove to a hypothetical "god" - or to ourselves - that we deserve a future on this world. Even though we have developed such amazing technology our collective consciousness is still in essence that of medieval Europe, where a teleological vision of an anthropocentric universe plunged us into an illusion of grandeur which we cling onto till this very day.
Where are we now? The industrial era is about to come to an end in the next decades - the ultimate test of humanity will be decided by what will substitute it. how we''ll manage, or fail, to replace our massive dependence on finite resources and the laws of diminishing return, for instance, will make or break us along with most of the achievements we have made.
If it sounds pessimistic rather than realistic, I can only refer one to historical precedent. The Romans, Mayans, Greeks and Egyptians didnt stop being Romans, Mayans, Greeks and Egyptians because they got bored: after massive achievements there have always followed massive collapses - this has been the rule, not the exception to evolution. It would be naive to think of ourselves as the exception given our present situation, and Fukuyama's "end of history" is emblematic of such naivety. I guess the goal would be for us to break that cycle of repetition. But if we don't on this particular occasion, I'm sure we (or another civilization) will get another shot at it in another couple of millennia.
The most important thing to acquire isnt technology, but perspective.
The truth may well be that we dont need god or a meteorite to annihilate or redeem us. Either way, it looks like we will take care of that ourselves. |
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Teimuraz Sakirovadze
Minister of Peace
Post #55637
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Posted: Fri 2008-05-16 08:37
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| TBTL wrote: |
| Isnt the very essence of our great accomplishments in the industrial revolution (ie: oil) a product of such a "pitiful asteroid"? |
Yes, indeed. If it wasn't for that asteroid, millions of retarded dinosaurs wouldn't have liquefied and lain there for 65 million years or so for us to use! 
| TBTC wrote: |
| Can we even comprehendthe magnitude of events that must have taken place millions of years ago to create the vast deposits of organic fossil fuel upon which our present society almost exclusively depends? The varied and specialised species whose accomplishments were suddenly transformed into oil by a "meteorite" back then may have regarded it as a pitiful way to go... but millions of years later we humans came along and erected an entire society thanks to that same event. Our achievements were only made possible by such a "meteorite"; which imo makes it poetic, rather than pitiful, for us to go out the same way. |
To my belief it would be both ironic and pitiful if we were to die by asteroids. But, I digress.
| TBTL wrote: |
| The problem for me is I feel we're collectively so far down the wrong track that so much has to be UNdone before we could prove to a hypothetical "god" - or to ourselves - that we deserve a future on this world. Even though we have developed such amazing technology our collective consciousness is still in essence that of medieval Europe, where a teleological vision of an anthropocentric universe plunged us into an illusion of grandeur which we cling onto till this very day. |
I hear you there... everything from vest-pocket wars to American Idol... we're not quite running on the correct track. Hey, at least we're not following the Bible to a T.  There would be no one left!
| TBTL wrote: |
| Where are we now? The industrial era is about to come to an end in the next decades - the ultimate test of humanity will be decided by what will substitute it. how we''ll manage, or fail, to replace our massive dependence on finite resources and the laws of diminishing return, for instance, will make or break us along with most of the achievements we have made. |
Hopefully we will be proven wrong. Only time will tell.
-Anzan
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