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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #53230
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 00:00
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Shooting at NIU. 22 shot, 6 dead including gunman |
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Time for another gun control debate?
| From CNN |
DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A gunman dressed in black stepped from behind a curtain at the front of a large lecture hall at Northern Illinois University on Thursday and shot 21 people, five of them fatally, then turned shot and killed himself, said university president John Peters.
Four died at the scene, including the shooter, and two later died at the hospital, he said.
At least 22 people, including a graduate student who was teaching an ocean sciences class, were shot, Peters said.
Seventeen victims were taken to Kishwaukee Community Hospital, its Web site said.
Of those, six were in critical condition and were flown to other hospitals. One fatality, a male, was confirmed -- but was not the gunman, the hospital said. Two were admitted, and three others were discharged. The other five were not addressed on the Web site.
Four of the fatalities were female, said Peters.
Most of the injuries are head and chest gunshot wounds, a hospital spokeswoman told CNN.
The gunman started shooting from a stage in the room shortly after 3 p.m. (4 p.m. ET) in Cole Hall, officials said.
Police Chief Donald Grady said authorities do not yet know of a motive.
They know the identity of the gunman but have not released his name, Grady added.
The shooter was a graduate student at NIU in the spring of 2007. Currently he was not enrolled there but, Grady said, "He may have been a student elsewhere."
Kevin McEnery said he was in the classroom when the gunman, dressed in a black shirt, dark pants and black hat, burst in carrying a shotgun.
"He just kicked the door open, just started shooting," said McEnery, who was in the class at the time. "All I really heard was just people screaming, yelling 'get out.' ... Close to 30 shots were fired."
There are about 162 registered students in the class that met in the large lecture hall.
A student described the classroom as having four exits - two at the front and two at the rear. "Witnesses say someone dressed in black came out from behind a screen in the front of the classroom and opened fire with a shotgun," Peters said.
At 3:03 p.m., NIU police responded, and four minutes later, the campus was ordered into "a lockdown situation," Grady said.
At 3:20, an all-campus alert went out via the campus Web site, e-mail, voice mail, the campus crisis hotline, the news media and various alarm systems, he said.
"The message basically was: There's a gunman on campus, stay where you are, make yourself as safe as possible," he said.
Rosie Moroni, a student at the school, told CNN she was outside Cole Hall near the King Commons when she heard shots coming from the classroom she was heading to.
The shot was followed by "a lot of people screaming," then people ran out the doors yelling, "He's got a gun, call 9-1-1," she said.
"It was complete chaos. It's very scary here right now."
By 4 p.m., DeKalb police had swept the area "and determined there was only one gunman" and that he was dead.
Grady said the man used three guns: a shotgun, a Glock handgun and a small-caliber handgun, and was still on the stage when he turned one of the guns on himself. The small-caliber handgun has not been recovered, he said.
The shooter started with a shotgun, then switched to a handgun, said Grady.
A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives told CNN that agents were on the scene, and could help trace the weapon or weapons used. Peters said the FBI is processing the crime scene and ATF was interviewing witnesses Thursday.
Events and classes were canceled until further notice, Peters said.
Seven counseling areas were set up throughout the campus, and hotlines were established.
Security around campus was increased in December when police found threats scrawled on a campus bathroom wall that included racial slurs and references to last April's Virginia Tech shootings.
One of the threats said "things will change most hastily" in the final days of the semester.
Peters said there is no evidence that points to a link between the December incident and Thursday's shooting.
Grady said it was unlikely authorities could have prevented Thursday's tragedy. "As much as we do, it's unlikely that anyone would ever have the ability to stop an incident like this from beginning," he said.
Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich declared a state of emergency, which will open the governor's disaster fund to reimburse local government entities for "extraordinary expenses related to the response in NIU DeKalb" and will allow the state Emergency Management Agency to provide assistance, the governor's office said in a statement.
The 113-year-old school is 65 miles west of downtown Chicago and has an enrollment of more than 25,000. The campus covers 755 acres.
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 Now this wouldn't happen if everyone was armed. since someone could just soot the shooter.  anyway this is the perfect argument for gun control, as, if you let madmen (though we don't know anything about the shooter's mental state. Yet.) have access to weapons, the this is inevitable.
anyway, have the native Illinoisans heard anything that I haven't?
edit: forgot the middle part of the article 
edit 2: updated article and title
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Last edited by Acebrock on Fri 2008-02-15 03:49; edited 1 time in total |
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #53236
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 00:25
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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These psychopaths aren't being sent to the military quickly enough! Strap them to a chair, overload them with Virtual Battlespace 2 and throw them out over the conflict zone as quickly as possible!
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Becca
Minister of Peace
Post #53241
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 01:14
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| Politics: Green |
Country: Germany |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I just hope there's no one involved whom I've gotten to know in the short days of being in AuPair school . It's more than unlikely but we had people who could be going to that college judging from where they were sent to.
Actually when I visited a College near Chicago I was walking around inside wondering what I'd do if that would happen. Judging from last weeks stuff it's not that unlikely to happen is it ? It seems to get more and more.
Well , I'm really sorry for the victims and their families : / . |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #53242
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 01:28
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Teimuraz Sakirovadze wrote: |
This shit is getting ridiculously old... colleges being shot-up like target paper. *facepalm.jpg*
...Dunno what else to say except 'what the fuck' .
-Kir |
I agree. All I have to say is more background checks and more gun cabinets.
| RAK wrote: |
| These psychopaths aren't being sent to the military quickly enough! Strap them to a chair, overload them with Virtual Battlespace 2 and throw them out over the conflict zone as quickly as possible! |
that's exactly what we should do!
| Rastasista wrote: |
| I just hope there's no one involved whom I've gotten to know in the short days of being in AuPair school . It's more than unlikely but we had people who could be going to that college judging from where they were sent to. |
I would hope so too.
| Rastasista wrote: |
| Actually when I visited a College near Chicago I was walking around inside wondering what I'd do if that would happen. Judging from last weeks stuff it's not that unlikely to happen is it ? It seems to get more and more. |
Yeah, the shootings seem to come in spurts. One person does a shooting and then a whole lot of others copy it. it's horrifying. Speaking of what to actually do if caught in such a shooting, during the ten minute intermission for my college class I was looking around the room I was in and wonderng what i would do if someone came in and opened fire. The problem, of course, is that the room has only one door, so I'd be pretty fucked over, all I could do is get under the desk and pray.
| Rastasista wrote: |
| Well , I'm really sorry for the victims and their families : / . |
ditto.
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orwelliantherye
Filthy Animal
Post #53243
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 01:48
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| RastaSista wrote: |
I just hope there's no one involved whom I've gotten to know in the short days of being in AuPair school . It's more than unlikely but we had people who could be going to that college judging from where they were sent to.
Actually when I visited a College near Chicago I was walking around inside wondering what I'd do if that would happen. Judging from last weeks stuff it's not that unlikely to happen is it ? It seems to get more and more.
Well , I'm really sorry for the victims and their families : / . |
Well, praise the Dark Lord Hubert Selby Jr. that I don't intend to go there for college, even though since it happened there then, it probably won't happen again. After all, there's never been a school with two school shootings so far, and there most likely will never be.
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| Rev. Ted Haggard wrote: |
| If you only read the books I read and met the scientists I know, then you would be great like me. As you age you'll find yourself right on some things and wrong on some other things, but please, in the process, don't be arrogant. |
| Eddie Murphy wrote: |
| I was upset when I met a man with no shoes.....But then I met a man with no penis |
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Current Situation: Not Good.
Note to Self and Others: Please Avoid Carl.
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #53244
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 01:58
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| orwelliantherye wrote: |
| RastaSista wrote: |
I just hope there's no one involved whom I've gotten to know in the short days of being in AuPair school . It's more than unlikely but we had people who could be going to that college judging from where they were sent to.
Actually when I visited a College near Chicago I was walking around inside wondering what I'd do if that would happen. Judging from last weeks stuff it's not that unlikely to happen is it ? It seems to get more and more.
Well , I'm really sorry for the victims and their families : / . |
Well, praise the Dark Lord Hubert Selby Jr. that I don't intend to go there for college, even though since it happened there then, it probably won't happen again. After all, there's never been a school with two school shootings so far, and there most likely will never be. |
actually that's an interesting point. There HAS never been two school shootings at the same school. I wonder why?
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orwelliantherye
Filthy Animal
Post #53250
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 02:42
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| orwelliantherye wrote: |
| RastaSista wrote: |
I just hope there's no one involved whom I've gotten to know in the short days of being in AuPair school . It's more than unlikely but we had people who could be going to that college judging from where they were sent to.
Actually when I visited a College near Chicago I was walking around inside wondering what I'd do if that would happen. Judging from last weeks stuff it's not that unlikely to happen is it ? It seems to get more and more.
Well , I'm really sorry for the victims and their families : / . |
Well, praise the Dark Lord Hubert Selby Jr. that I don't intend to go there for college, even though since it happened there then, it probably won't happen again. After all, there's never been a school with two school shootings so far, and there most likely will never be. |
actually that's an interesting point. There HAS never been two school shootings at the same school. I wonder why? |
It's just like a scene from the movie version of World According to Garp. In one scene, Garp and Helen are looking for a house, and buy one which just happened to have an airplane crash into it while they were touring it because of the astronomical chances of the same thing happening again.
_________________
| Rev. Ted Haggard wrote: |
| If you only read the books I read and met the scientists I know, then you would be great like me. As you age you'll find yourself right on some things and wrong on some other things, but please, in the process, don't be arrogant. |
| Eddie Murphy wrote: |
| I was upset when I met a man with no shoes.....But then I met a man with no penis |
Veteran of the First Batshit War on rats.
Current Situation: Not Good.
Note to Self and Others: Please Avoid Carl.
Orwelliantherye; As Harmless as Kitchen. |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #53251
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 03:49
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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the article has been updated.
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #53254
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 05:48
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Oh another school shooting, it's always sad when people die and one cannot underestimate the loss and trauma inflicted upon a community by these events; however they are poor arguments for gun control.
School shootings are rare, they account for an insignificant amount of the unlawful deaths from firearms and are even less relevant when examining unecessary deaths in general. If school shootings were the sole argument for gun control it could be likened to banning boats solely because of the titanic. Scanning the news clippings, school shootings account for at most a couple hundred deaths over all time. Ace wondered why school shootings never occur in the same school twice, it's simple probability, the shootings are extremely rare and schools are extremely common.
Number wise these shootings are a drop in the ocean of the approx. 14 firearm related deaths per 100,000 people per annum in the united states (I believe about a third are suicide). However, we find them significant because they are shocking, concentrated and drive a media frenzy, to raise them in a serious gun control debate is at best intellectual sloth and at worst sophistry.
Furthermore the problem is surely more than simply the availability of guns, the presence of homicidal individuals with access to our schools is surely a worry? Where these people are students you have to ask how these people have slipped through the cracks? We tolerate deeply depressed and unhappy young people as a simple fact of school life, perhaps we shouldn't? Whilst these people have access to our schools they will always pose a serious threat whether or not guns are available. Guns at worst exacerbate the death toll over options like knives, but it should be noted that poison and explosives are both very real options which higher damage potential.
I think that there is a happy medium to be achieved in gun control, with proper registration and accountability on ammunition and weaponry, but I honestly think these shootings are a non-issue with regards to that particular argument.
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"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
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Sindark Nave
Filthy Animal
Post #53267
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 10:59
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| Politics: Marxism |
Country: Hong Kong |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| orwelliantherye wrote: |
| AceBrock wrote: |
| orwelliantherye wrote: |
| RastaSista wrote: |
I just hope there's no one involved whom I've gotten to know in the short days of being in AuPair school . It's more than unlikely but we had people who could be going to that college judging from where they were sent to.
Actually when I visited a College near Chicago I was walking around inside wondering what I'd do if that would happen. Judging from last weeks stuff it's not that unlikely to happen is it ? It seems to get more and more.
Well , I'm really sorry for the victims and their families : / . |
Well, praise the Dark Lord Hubert Selby Jr. that I don't intend to go there for college, even though since it happened there then, it probably won't happen again. After all, there's never been a school with two school shootings so far, and there most likely will never be. |
actually that's an interesting point. There HAS never been two school shootings at the same school. I wonder why? |
It's just like a scene from the movie version of World According to Garp. In one scene, Garp and Helen are looking for a house, and buy one which just happened to have an airplane crash into it while they were touring it because of the astronomical chances of the same thing happening again. |
Patient: Doctor, doctor, what are the chances?
Doctor: Pretty high.
Patient: But the success rate's only 0.01%!
Doctor: You see, 9999 people before you have died in the surgery...that makes you the successful one!
Seriously, that's just the Gambler's paradox. The fact that something happened once doesn't mean it won't happen again - unless the first time it happened leads to authorities tightening measures, which is probably what happened.
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Azazel
Committee Leader
Post #53294
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 20:41
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: United States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Quote: |
| I agree. All I have to say is more background checks and more gun cabinets. |
right because a background check on a man with no criminal record and who had a history of being an outstanding student would definitely have stopped this shooting.
| Quote: |
Patient: Doctor, doctor, what are the chances?
Doctor: Pretty high.
Patient: But the success rate's only 0.01%!
Doctor: You see, 9999 people before you have died in the surgery...that makes you the successful one!
Seriously, that's just the Gambler's paradox. The fact that something happened once doesn't mean it won't happen again - unless the first time it happened leads to authorities tightening measures, which is probably what happened. |
your exactly right, I don't think you guys thought this through the chances of a shooting happening at a given school is like one in tens of thousands. if you just take the schools that have had a shooting (probably only several dozen) and then give each of them a one in ten-thousand chance. The chances that a shooting happens at one of those few schools that have had a shooting is incredibly low and almost certainly has nothing to do with extra security measures
| Quote: |
| Time for another gun control debate? |
to tell you the truth, I've never understood so called "liberals" who are ardently against gun control, you guys trust the military and government with guns but not the people? gee gods. The military is always going to have guns, the only question is whether or not the people have access to them.
this argument can be taken too far of course, I don't think everyone should have a nuclear bomb but I do think that everyone should be given access to protect themselves against tyranny
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Becca
Minister of Peace
Post #53299
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 21:10
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| Politics: Green |
Country: Germany |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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You can protect yourself with your fists or a pair of gloves .lol
What do you need a gun for? You really don't need one around your house. |
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Tristan
Committee Leader
Post #53305
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Posted: Fri 2008-02-15 23:49
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| Politics: Republican (U.S. Conservative) |
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| The Guns are the bullshit... the Mind is the substance |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Incidents like these give us insight into the psychological profile our society. The fact that moderately well-raised American white boys brood around and dress up in black and kill their school peers reminds me of historic psychological phenomena that sort of came and went with the times. Like "village idiots," or witch trials, or Victorian hysteria. I suspect that most of these boys are emotionally impoverished and are reacting to our unique society in a unique way; specifically, they remain somewhat isolated from their peers and are denied the opportunity--or betimes the necessity--of undergoing a meaningful emotional experience amid a sea of experiences whose richness, both emotional and material, is plain to anyone. This coldness, the notion of living life not really experiencing true danger and risk and strong feelings, might not bother all people in all settings, but some boys probably get driven nuts in a populous school setting, seeing relationships form everywhere around them, but feeling somehow isolated. I think Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, Cho (even though he's not really white), and this new guy at NIU, Steven, all had fairly similar value systems emerge and their reasons for acting as they did when they addressed the isolation were probably identical.
Modern society values life and success but towards some people, it does not do a particularly good job of explaining why. After all, religion is no longer dominant as an end-all, be-all explainer of Why, and good and evil can appear as blurry, interchangeable aspects of the singular condition of having a purpose. For example, Saddam Hussein, a very cruel modern killer, was demonized forever and then instantly humanized when he hung. It's in the atmosphere of so much life and diversity, so distant from more primitive human needs like hunger, that kids might give equal treatment of life and success with death and failure. The thread that runs counter to overall societal values lionizes anti-social conduct and delights in the grotesque, the evil, the nihilistic, and the annihilistic. It incorporates modern society's lack of gods or a "Providence" by saying that instead, life is either 1) completely meaningless or 2) has a self-contained purpose. Because of this arbitrariness, it's just as fine to destroy as to create. In the counter-culture, Cho is a less of an alien stranger--a weird nut to be ignored, and more like a fellow game-player with the current high score.
I know this is an incomplete analysis and that there may fine points in the theory to work on, but it fits these situations a hell of a lot better than than gun control. In these school shootings, I am as fascinated with the individual pulling that gun's trigger as I am disinterested in whether the gun was obtained legally or not. The gun was certainly an enabler to the behavior, but the child's value system is a more enticing field for a thinker to operate on. I say "child" even knowing that the latest shooter was 27. He was puerile, completely undeveloped, and lived an elemental existence and I think that's fascinating. A tragedy that he had problems, but fascinating how they developed and how much (and how little) of ourselves we might see in his behavior. |
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Becca
Minister of Peace
Post #53320
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Posted: Sat 2008-02-16 04:15
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| Politics: Green |
Country: Germany |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Tasers? Omg . they can kill you. And i bet me too, my heartbeat is kinda ...crippled?!? lol
Well. I am into using fists lol. |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #53328
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Posted: Sat 2008-02-16 08:50
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| Politics: Dominionism |
Country: Oceania |
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| Guns are the bullshit... the RIGHTWING MIND is the substance |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Tristan wrote: |
Incidents like these give us insight into the psychological profile our society. The fact that moderately well-raised American white boys brood around and dress up in black and kill their school peers reminds me of historic psychological phenomena that sort of came and went with the times. Like "village idiots," or witch trials, or Victorian hysteria. I suspect that most of these boys are emotionally impoverished and are reacting to our unique society in a unique way; specifically, they remain somewhat isolated from their peers and are denied the opportunity--or betimes the necessity--of undergoing a meaningful emotional experience amid a sea of experiences whose richness, both emotional and material, is plain to anyone. This coldness, the notion of living life not really experiencing true danger and risk and strong feelings, might not bother all people in all settings, but some boys probably get driven nuts in a populous school setting, seeing relationships form everywhere around them, but feeling somehow isolated. I think Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, Cho (even though he's not really white), and this new guy at NIU, Steven, all had fairly similar value systems emerge and their reasons for acting as they did when they addressed the isolation were probably identical.
Modern society values life and success but towards some people, it does not do a particularly good job of explaining why. After all, religion is no longer dominant as an end-all, be-all explainer of Why, and good and evil can appear as blurry, interchangeable aspects of the singular condition of having a purpose. For example, Saddam Hussein, a very cruel modern killer, was demonized forever and then instantly humanized when he hung. It's in the atmosphere of so much life and diversity, so distant from more primitive human needs like hunger, that kids might give equal treatment of life and success with death and failure. The thread that runs counter to overall societal values lionizes anti-social conduct and delights in the grotesque, the evil, the nihilistic, and the annihilistic. It incorporates modern society's lack of gods or a "Providence" by saying that instead, life is either 1) completely meaningless or 2) has a self-contained purpose. Because of this arbitrariness, it's just as fine to destroy as to create. In the counter-culture, Cho is a less of an alien stranger--a weird nut to be ignored, and more like a fellow game-player with the current high score.
I know this is an incomplete analysis and that there may fine points in the theory to work on, but it fits these situations a hell of a lot better than than gun control. In these school shootings, I am as fascinated with the individual pulling that gun's trigger as I am disinterested in whether the gun was obtained legally or not. The gun was certainly an enabler to the behavior, but the child's value system is a more enticing field for a thinker to operate on. I say "child" even knowing that the latest shooter was 27. He was puerile, completely undeveloped, and lived an elemental existence and I think that's fascinating. A tragedy that he had problems, but fascinating how they developed and how much (and how little) of ourselves we might see in his behavior. |
** slightly tangential to this topic ***
Practical Paramilitary Purposes for Guns shithead.....
Indeed Tristan, if you are an Extreme paranoid Rightwinger ignoramus, you'll try to build a Right Wing Paramilitary Group to terrorize Lefties, Liberals (they are interchangeable in a rightwinger's mind any way, both start with "L" so fuck it) and minorities, works sweet, say lax gun control helps Southern Separatists and Assassinations and shit, while larger prisons make for criminalizing poverty and turn the inmates into corporate slaves through privatization (Wackenhut and privatized welfare services with religious conversion (from the Law & Order Reaganesque discourse))
Of course you'd vote against Gun Control duh!
Gotta kill the next Lincoln#2 someday White Bread, take no chances.
So much for Right Wing Pro-lifers, be damned for Guns Come First and to hell with innocent lives!
-consider the abortion clinic staff on the cross-hairs of this telescopic sighted rifle, bub!
** Return to topic ***
_________________
What is a Democratic Socialist?
It is a Communist who is cowardly
enough to call himself what he's not, for fear of backlash on the Semantics. It is about the "Speed" of the "Revolution".
Like Hitler said "get them persuaded and us elected"
Caveat Emptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Socialism
DO NOT USE BIG BROTHER'S LIBERTARIAN POLICIES AND BELIEFS AGAINST HIS HIMSELF AND HIS FORUM |
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