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| Should autism be cured? |
| Yes |
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41% |
[ 10 ] |
| No |
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12% |
[ 3 ] |
| No, but treatment should be available for those who have trouble functioning in society |
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45% |
[ 11 ] |
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| Voted : 24 |
| Total Votes : 24 |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35611
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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Posted: Sat 2006-11-25 03:15
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| By any useful definition of the term in context of this discussion newly born children don't have a personality. |
but their actions and development are already preprogrammed, determining the course the rest of their lives
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| I'm curious would your opinion change if autism was weeded out pre-conception? |
nope. mainly because messing with a child prenatally just seem so wrong to me. Actually messing with the mental or physical processes of someone without permission, no matter how developed they are, seems wrong, edit:unless you're trying to save their life
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| The biggest advantages in autism seem to come with the biggest disadvantages , LFAs get all the neatest tricks but noone would want to change places. |
I wonder how useful it would actually be to be able to recall everything you read. And who says having a simple life can't make one happy?
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| With those of us at the lighter end of the spectrum it's pretty hit and miss, some of us deal with it find a model to cope with learning and social interaction and if we're lucky get a boost to the ol IQ because we don't have all that social junk clouding up our intuitive understanding of logical systems. |
can't argue with that. 
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The unlucky/more heavily afflicted HFAs however never jump that hurdle they end up sucking at school despite being inexplicably good at minor aspects and often become lonely and violent. |
Would you happen to be talking about serial killers? I always thought that that had something to do with sociopathy
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| Introverts (being introverted is also a suspected genetic condition, it seems to be genetically linked to saliva production^^) get most of the pluses and none of the annoying quirks of HFA/aspergers. |
no argument here. (I'm not quite understanding the saliva joke)
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| If I was going to re-engineer society I would probably switch the proportion of introverts and extroverts (extroverts are dumb and annoying ^^) |
agreed
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but I really don't see any reason why someone would want to adopt the potential problems of autism for a few extra marks on the maths test. |
And I don't see why someone would want to become normal for a date with some they like
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| Perhaps if you outlined to me what you see to be the benefits and disadvantages of being HFA and I can adress them as personally my list of benefits is seeming pretty short. |
alright.
Advantages:
1. Beauty. I have heard many times that autistics are born as beautiful children
2. An alternate view of thingd. Seeing things like everyone else can disguise many problems that would otherwise be noticable
3. High IQ. Being smarter than the average person is always nice. And genius is a mental defect
4. Avoiding all of the social niceties. You can be a jerk to someone and blame it all on the stress of having the world so difficult to understand, even if you have a good understanding of it.
Disadvantages:
1. Stress. Having to perform up to your potential constantly is stressful, as well as having a conversation with someone you just met
2. Pity. I hate being pitied, and I'll be damned if I find anyone who likes it
3. Society's desire to make me "normal." I believe I've explained this adequately
edit:As you can see most of the percieved disadvantages have to do with society's failure to understand me. All of that was based on personal experience, by the way.
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| I'm assuming we're pretty much in agreement on LFAs though ... noone wants to live like that even if they do get to star in a lame movie with bruce willis or even worse tom cruise. |
 But ignorance is bliss!
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #35613
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sat 2006-11-25 04:33
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| AceBrock wrote: |
but their actions and development are already preprogrammed, determining the course the rest of their lives |
Surely this is a combination of nature and nurture, environment has a very large part to play in determining personality, it is also the entity which would deliver a cure. Anyway the whole world may well be deterministic that doesn't mean every structure has the worth of all future structures it has the potential to take part in.
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| nope. mainly because messing with a child prenatally just seem so wrong to me. Actually messing with the mental or physical processes of someone without permission, no matter how developed they are, seems wrong |
Even the nutty christians don't see them as people pre-conception. We mess with peoples mental and physical state without permission all the way through childhood and if we didn't a lot of children would be worse of for it. Society has to make medical decision for minors as they lack the mental capacity to do it for themselves, you wouldn't appreciate doctors saying "well darnit little jimmy has cancer and he just won't agree to the scary surgery guess we'll hang about till he's 18". Autism is similar by the time the person is old enough to give consent the damage is irrevocably done.
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| I wonder how useful it would actually be to be able to recall everything you read. And who says having a simple life can't make one happy? |
It would be jolly useful if you could understand the world in which the knowledge would be applied.
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Would you happen to be talking about serial killers? I always thought that that had something to do with sociopathy |
Nope just normal violence, it's a natural responce to frustration unlike LFAs that are so screwed up they remain calm HFAs recognise what they want to do and the fact they are less capable than neurotypical individuals at achieving it. My mother works with children with learning disabilities in mainstream education so I've met quite a lot of kids with aspergers or HFA, many act out (aspergers sufferers have a tendancy just to act plain weirdly although I seem to have escaped this) or become depressed and reclusive. For every successful HFA whose a little better at some forms of understanding than the neurotypical there's one who can't handle it and gives up.
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| no argument here. (I'm not quite understanding the saliva joke) |
That's because it's not a joke, just a tidbit of trivia. They are supposedly genetically related (couple ways this can happen not entirely sure which one applies here) so you can tell if someone is introverted by measuring their saliva production theoretically.
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| And I don't see why someone would want to become normal for a date with some they like |
Man I do, I can think of times when I would have turned into a paraplegic for a week to get a date with someone I liked . But it really isn't just that, autism is just an unnecessary risk and whilst it might have nice side effects is ultimately an lack of ability to understand the theory of mind an important part of our evolutionary development and language along with other social constructs.
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alright.
Advantages:
1. Beauty. I have heard many times that autistics are born as beautiful children
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Unlikely Beauty is largely genetic autism is not entirely gentic, furthermore both autism and beauty supposedly span such varied sections of the genome it's hard to believe a link could arise unless autism itself caused beauty chemically, which knowing what we do about autism is hard to believe. People often see vulnerability as cute, autistic children (particularly LFAs) are quiet calm children with no obvious external signs of their affliction, sounds like bunk to me.
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2. An alternate view of thingd. Seeing things like everyone else can disguise many problems that would otherwise be noticable
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All types of mental disorders give us alternative views of the world, unfortunately these views are usually evolutionarily inviable, in many ways autism can be seen as a regression away from the social mechanisms humanity has developed such and empathy and the theory of mind. A world full of HFAs wouldn't have got far as society would never have formed. To me it seems that there is enough variation in the neurotypical spectrum to allow people to see things from different points of view(and they often do). So whilst I see the desirability of this feature I fail to see why it is a particularly autistic quality.
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3. High IQ. Being smarter than the average person is always nice. And genius is a mental defect |
We're not really smarter per se because of autism, on one hand we're not as wound up about social irrelevance, on the other we have a slightly better grasp of formal systems. An introvert finds similar benefits yet lacks understanding difficulties. I accept this is an advantage but a small one in my opinion and not one that really manifests itself for autistics.
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4. Avoiding all of the social niceties. You can be a jerk to someone and blame it all on the stress of having the world so difficult to understand, even if you have a good understanding of it.
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That sounds pretty lame to me, kinda like "having a broken leg is cool because you can get out of running and cancel appointments saying it hurt too much" I would not use a vulnerability to such an ends so I find it hard to relate to this one. I've never told anyone about my diagnosis except this forum (my parents and some quack know but that's it) and I only tell you because you don't really know me.I'd hate to be identified by a mental condition. But yeah if this does it for you you can just be normal and then lie best of both worlds.
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Disadvantages:
1. Stress. Having to perform up to your potential constantly is stressful, as well as having a conversation with someone you just met
|
Funnily enough I always find conversations with semi-known acquaintances the hardest, first meetings can be approached in quite an orderly manner as can conversations with those you know well . It's the hell of making a subject out of nothing that annoys me. But yes ultimately HFAs have lesser social understanding and empathetic understanding. This in my eyes is a big disadvantage.
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2. Pity. I hate being pitied, and I'll be damned if I find anyone who likes it
3. Society's desire to make me "normal." I believe I've explained this adequately
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Easy solution don't tell people, if you've managed as a HFA to this age I'm sure your pretty good at covering it up.
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edit:As you can see most of the percieved disadvantages have to do with society's failure to understand me. All of that was based on personal experience, by the way.
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Sounds like a bit of a persecution complex ^^, society doesn't understand you but you don't understand society in the same way others do. It is that lack of understanding and the general lack of ability to relate intuitively with all aspects of a social mechanic which form the greatest hurdle for a HFA and the greatest disadvantage. It's this that leads to the learning difficulties and such which stunt so many autistic children.
To me really it seems a competition between a little smarter vs social confusion and inability to comprehend concepts through mimicery at a young age at least not the the extent a neurotypical child can.
We can get a little smarter with a little more hard work but autism is a serious problem to many children which if a cure became available we needn't afflict upon them.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35623
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
Total Words: 306,554
Average words per post: 176.08
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Posted: Sat 2006-11-25 18:36
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
Surely this is a combination of nature and nurture, environment has a very large part to play in determining personality, it is also the entity which would deliver a cure. Anyway the whole world may well be deterministic that doesn't mean every structure has the worth of all future structures it has the potential to take part in. |
Genetics also play a rather large part. they influence how environment will affect the person, though retraining someone at an early age to be normal, which you seem to be saying when you say nature will deliver a cure, would be difficult, especially since autistics are introverted from an early age
| Quote: |
| Even the nutty christians don't see them as people pre-conception. We mess with peoples mental and physical state without permission all the way through childhood and if we didn't a lot of children would be worse of for it. Society has to make medical decision for minors as they lack the mental capacity to do it for themselves, you wouldn't appreciate doctors saying "well darnit little jimmy has cancer and he just won't agree to the scary surgery guess we'll hang about till he's 18". Autism is similar by the time the person is old enough to give consent the damage is irrevocably done. |
Damage? The rest I'm conceding on but damage, well, damage is almost infinately debatable, as we have proven.
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Nope just normal violence, it's a natural responce to frustration unlike LFAs that are so screwed up they remain calm HFAs recognise what they want to do and the fact they are less capable than neurotypical individuals at achieving it. My mother works with children with learning disabilities in mainstream education so I've met quite a lot of kids with aspergers or HFA, many act out (aspergers sufferers have a tendancy just to act plain weirdly although I seem to have escaped this) or become depressed and reclusive. For every successful HFA whose a little better at some forms of understanding than the neurotypical there's one who can't handle it and gives up. |
*remembers spurts of violence in own youth*
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| That's because it's not a joke, just a tidbit of trivia. They are supposedly genetically related (couple ways this can happen not entirely sure which one applies here) so you can tell if someone is introverted by measuring their saliva production theoretically. |
ah
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| Man I do, I can think of times when I would have turned into a paraplegic for a week to get a date with someone I liked . But it really isn't just that, autism is just an unnecessary risk and whilst it might have nice side effects is ultimately an lack of ability to understand the theory of mind an important part of our evolutionary development and language along with other social constructs. |
who says that there aren't risks both ways? Really, changing who you are on every level for to meet some desire seems idiotic to me.
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| Unlikely Beauty is largely genetic autism is not entirely gentic, furthermore both autism and beauty supposedly span such varied sections of the genome it's hard to believe a link could arise unless autism itself caused beauty chemically, which knowing what we do about autism is hard to believe. People often see vulnerability as cute, autistic children (particularly LFAs) are quiet calm children with no obvious external signs of their affliction, sounds like bunk to me. |
erm...
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| All types of mental disorders give us alternative views of the world, unfortunately these views are usually evolutionarily inviable, in many ways autism can be seen as a regression away from the social mechanisms humanity has developed such and empathy and the theory of mind. A world full of HFAs wouldn't have got far as society would never have formed. To me it seems that there is enough variation in the neurotypical spectrum to allow people to see things from different points of view(and they often do). So whilst I see the desirability of this feature I fail to see why it is a particularly autistic quality. |
hmm...There is the possibility that they would have found some way to dapt and develop a society, though it would be almost unrecognizable as such if people from our society were shown it.
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| We're not really smarter per se because of autism, on one hand we're not as wound up about social irrelevance, on the other we have a slightly better grasp of formal systems. An introvert finds similar benefits yet lacks understanding difficulties. I accept this is an advantage but a small one in my opinion and not one that really manifests itself for autistics. |
my response to that is introversion may in itself be a mental defect. Using one of your recent arguments, slightly modified: A world full of introverts wouldn't have got far as society may never have formed.
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That sounds pretty lame to me, kinda like "having a broken leg is cool because you can get out of running and cancel appointments saying it hurt too much" I would not use a vulnerability to such an ends so I find it hard to relate to this one. I've never told anyone about my diagnosis except this forum (my parents and some quack know but that's it) and I only tell you because you don't really know me.I'd hate to be identified by a mental condition. But yeah if this does it for you you can just be normal and then lie best of both worlds. |
few people know about my condition but I had anxiety issues when I was younger, and if I wanted to I could pretend to have a large amunt of anxiety about somethign to get out of it. I'm not sure how many times it would work though.
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Funnily enough I always find conversations with semi-known acquaintances the hardest, first meetings can be approached in quite an orderly manner as can conversations with those you know well . It's the hell of making a subject out of nothing that annoys me. But yes ultimately HFAs have lesser social understanding and empathetic understanding. This in my eyes is a big disadvantage. |
professional matters I approach with ease, but with persoanl matters, I hesitate to a great extent, often to the point of being almost totally clammed up. And who needs social understanding these days? we have the internet. 
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| Easy solution don't tell people, if you've managed as a HFA to this age I'm sure your pretty good at covering it up. |
Now for a suprise. I was diagnosed late because it took so long to see it was psychological, and not developmental. I showed signs of autism for years before ever being diagnosed.They were just misinterpreted
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Sounds like a bit of a persecution complex ^^ |
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| society doesn't understand you but you don't understand society in the same way others do. It is that lack of understanding and the general lack of ability to relate intuitively with all aspects of a social mechanic which form the greatest hurdle for a HFA and the greatest disadvantage. It's this that leads to the learning difficulties and such which stunt so many autistic children. |
an endless loop effect. hmm...fixing one half of the problem can help fix the other half of the problem in this case, it's just the simple matter of which side needs to be fixed. I say the societal side.you say the autistical side and we're right back to the point of contention.
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| To me really it seems a competition between a little smarter vs social confusion and inability to comprehend concepts through mimicery at a young age at least not the the extent a neurotypical child can. |
I'm going to have to challenge the little smarter thing. some autistics are insanely smart, while others benefit very little. And once again, with the advent of the internet, who needs social ability? 
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| We can get a little smarter with a little more hard work but autism is a serious problem to many children which if a cure became available we needn't afflict upon them. |
With proper accomadations, and, under certain curcimstances, having autistics learning and working together, most problems can be avoided
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #35624
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sat 2006-11-25 20:01
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| Genetics also play a rather large part. they influence how environment will affect the person, though retraining someone at an early age to be normal, which you seem to be saying when you say nature will deliver a cure, would be difficult, especially since autistics are introverted from an early age |
There is quite a debate there nature vs nurture is an ancient controversy(and one that is getting rather old ^^). I said nurture is the source of the cure just to be clear ,by this I simply meant that a cure is simply another environmental factor effecting the development of a personality. Autistic babies are introverted in a sense, they tend to be quiet and don't associate with carers faces in the same way normal children do, however that doesn't mean they have an introverted personality in the way a 12 year old does. A baby is in the process of developing a personality as far as its consciousness is concerned(potential is irrelevant to me in terms of moral calculus, else I'd be signing up with the anti-choice crowd) it's pretty much a blank slate and suffering from a personality shift is negligable. My main reservations with curing minors of more advanced age is the suffering it would impose and the destruction of an existing intelligence neither of these seem pressing in those of very young age and are non-existant pre-conception.
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Damage? The rest I'm conceding on but damage, well, damage is almost infinately debatable, as we have proven. |
I'm talking mainly about the subjective damage, many autistics resent the negative aspects of their condition but still I suspect wouldn't cure it at this late point. Even if they did I somewhat suspect a cure wouldn't resolve the issues they have developed growing up with autism.
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*remembers spurts of violence in own youth* |
So you concede this aspect of my argument?
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who says that there aren't risks both ways? Really, changing who you are on every level for to meet some desire seems idiotic to me.
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Course there are, there are just more risks down the autistic path.
Heh I agree really but that's not what I'm suggesting, I'm suggesting a we help prevent people suffering from these personality traits which will stunt social involvement (which is still very much desired in all but the most extreme cases of autism).
Problem? I just don't think the suggestion there is some link between autism and beauty is very realistic scientifially speaking, if you want to link me to a paper or something, by all means.
... That said I am a stunner.^^
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| hmm...There is the possibility that they would have found some way to dapt and develop a society, though it would be almost unrecognizable as such if people from our society were shown it. |
I somewhat suspect not, the theory of mind seems to be the key human evolutionary development which allows us to create complex societies, it's the big seperation from primate intelligences so I suspect a an autistic society would model primate communities(largely based on personal desire and limited group selection dynamics).
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my response to that is introversion may in itself be a mental defect. Using one of your recent arguments, slightly modified: A world full of introverts wouldn't have got far as society may never have formed.
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I think a society of introverts would have been reasonably successful the difference between introverts and the autistic spectrum is that introverts maintain social empathy and the theory of mind in full they tend to be very successful social players. What makes them introverted is the lack of a social plus from social interaction in and of itself they thusly tend to have a very utilitarian approach to social contact, which is great for a society . I suspect extroversion is somewhat of a vestigal element of personality which was more beneficial when we needed to have a pull keeping us in very tight small communities.
But regardless introverts don't have nearly as many problems as those on the autistic spectrum and as suffering is ther metric I'm using are a much smaller issue if one at all.
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few people know about my condition but I had anxiety issues when I was younger, and if I wanted to I could pretend to have a large amunt of anxiety about somethign to get out of it. I'm not sure how many times it would work though.
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From being on the other end of that I tend to find it breeds resentment.
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professional matters I approach with ease, but with persoanl matters, I hesitate to a great extent, often to the point of being almost totally clammed up. And who needs social understanding these days? we have the internet. |
Evenon the internet we form social networks , as it develops it will mimic reality more and more.
I must admit I find proffessional communication easier too, it seems most of my close friends are made through work or through study. My trick with personal communication is to use set pieces to move things onto topics you can discuss, once the conversation is on a set topic I have much less trouble.
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| Easy solution don't tell people, if you've managed as a HFA to this age I'm sure your pretty good at covering it up. |
Now for a suprise. I was diagnosed late because it took so long to see it was psychological, and not developmental. I showed signs of autism for years before ever being diagnosed.They were just misinterpreted
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| an endless loop effect. hmm...fixing one half of the problem can help fix the other half of the problem in this case, it's just the simple matter of which side needs to be fixed. I say the societal side.you say the autistical side and we're right back to the point of contention. |
I think for society to "fix its problem" in respect to autistic grievances it would pretty much have to dissolve ... well not dissolve but the social intuition and abstraction that neurotypical society rely on would have to be completely revamped. I really think lack of understanding towards autism is a very very small part of the problem. Autistic people have a problem with society because it works in a manner which is somewhat alien to them. The autistic side can be fixed (in your hypothetical) easily and without suffering, to fix society would be a likely impossible undertaking which would probably hurt a lot of people. It's time to be a little practical.
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| I'm going to have to challenge the little smarter thing. some autistics are insanely smart, while others benefit very little. And once again, with the advent of the internet, who needs social ability? |
I'm talking about the part directly caused by the autism, most of the benefits some autistics attain are a result of above average work input and interest a corollary of sucking at the social bit. If you compare HFAs and neurotypicals who invest themselves to a similar degree there isn't that stunning a difference.
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With proper accomadations, and, under certain curcimstances, having autistics learning and working together, most problems can be avoided |
I'm not saying things can't be dealt with to a degree but if it ultimately comes out as a problem it causes suffering and should be cured.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #35626
Joined: 15 May 2004
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Posted: Sat 2006-11-25 22:11
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Quote: |
| I'm going to have to challenge the little smarter thing. some autistics are insanely smart, while others benefit very little. And once again, with the advent of the internet, who needs social ability? |
If I were granted no social ability, I'd give up my right arm in order to obtain it. Unfortunately for those who have little social ability, much of the world still revolves around an ability to communicate effectively with peers. Fortunately for myself, I have obtained an exponential increase in social ability in the last few years, although it certainly isn't what you'd consider very powerful or effective. I am very outspoken, though; something which did not exist for me about three years ago.
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I think a society of introverts would have been reasonably successful the difference between introverts and the autistic spectrum is that introverts maintain social empathy and the theory of mind in full they tend to be very successful social players. What makes them introverted is the lack of a social plus from social interaction in and of itself they thusly tend to have a very utilitarian approach to social contact, which is great for a society . I suspect extroversion is somewhat of a vestigal element of personality which was more beneficial when we needed to have a pull keeping us in very tight small communities. |
I think that the key is to look at the word "reasonably". In the timeline of humanity as Homo sapiens, early development (up to the Iron Age, for example) would have been fucked up. Human development at that timescale, as far as I can see, relied on extroverted people to express themselves. I think that a lot of wars would have been prevented, leading to developments in certain technologies much earlier, but stagnating others. If a society of introverts made it to the Industrial Revolution, they'd sail through it, but be very stuck once they got past the 80486 processor, because a lot of software which determines modern life relies on large teams, which must be able to express feelings and opinions easily.
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| few people know about my condition but I had anxiety issues when I was younger, and if I wanted to I could pretend to have a large amunt of anxiety about somethign to get out of it. I'm not sure how many times it would work though. |
Let me say from a point of view which can somewhat sympathise: It pisses the hell out of people. It pisses the hell out of me, now that I've grown up.
_________________
"Rejection of technology ruins a good mind." - RAK
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35627
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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Posted: Sat 2006-11-25 22:31
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| There is quite a debate there nature vs nurture is an ancient controversy(and one that is getting rather old ^^). I said nurture is the source of the cure just to be clear ,by this I simply meant that a cure is simply another environmental factor effecting the development of a personality. Autistic babies are introverted in a sense, they tend to be quiet and don't associate with carers faces in the same way normal children do, however that doesn't mean they have an introverted personality in the way a 12 year old does. A baby is in the process of developing a personality as far as its consciousness is concerned(potential is irrelevant to me in terms of moral calculus, else I'd be signing up with the anti-choice crowd) it's pretty much a blank slate and suffering from a personality shift is negligable. My main reservations with curing minors of more advanced age is the suffering it would impose and the destruction of an existing intelligence neither of these seem pressing in those of very young age and are non-existant pre-conception. |
I have no comment at this time. Except, as an alternative to curing autistics, why not have them live and work together if that would be most benificial? It's been shown to work in the past, mainly with LFAs buyt autistics develop a sort of guard when interacting with neurotypicals, whether that be hiding it, as in your case, or clamming up and staying semi-withdrawn in unfamiliar circumstances, as in mine
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I'm talking mainly about the subjective damage, many autistics resent the negative aspects of their condition but still I suspect wouldn't cure it at this late point. Even if they did I somewhat suspect a cure wouldn't resolve the issues they have developed growing up with autism. |
they do?
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| So you concede this aspect of my argument? |
No. I just needed some time to figure out why I dropped my fomer violence. Effective anger management techniques pretty much stopped my violent streak, though thay were self taught.
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| Course there are, there are just more risks down the autistic path. |
Should have defined this better. Who says that going from autistic to normal and from normal to autistic doesn't make you lose something? If you become normal do you still want the object of your autistic affection? or if you go from normal to autistic, do you still enjoy the things you used to do? the transition, as well as the subsequent adaption would be difficult and stressful in their own unique ways.
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| Heh I agree really but that's not what I'm suggesting, I'm suggesting a we help prevent people suffering from these personality traits which will stunt social involvement (which is still very much desired in all but the most extreme cases of autism). |
I never (okay, rarely) had any desire for social involvement but I guess I could be unique in that aspect.
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| Problem? I just don't think the suggestion there is some link between autism and beauty is very realistic scientifially speaking, if you want to link me to a paper or something, by all means. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Autism#autistic_beautiful_.3F.3F.3F.3F The best I can come up with is this wikipedia conversation which cites a webpage that no longer exists and a rolling stone from 1979
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| ... That said I am a stunner.^^ |
got proof?
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| I somewhat suspect not, the theory of mind seems to be the key human evolutionary development which allows us to create complex societies, it's the big seperation from primate intelligences so I suspect a an autistic society would model primate communities(largely based on personal desire and limited group selection dynamics). |
Well, though this has little to do with your point, I remember reading, on wikipedia, that there are aspies who want to establish a man made island for those who have asperger's and autism, but I can't find it now. Still, I believe that autistics can better associate and bond with other autistics, even if they are LFAs, which explains why autistics tend to marry other autistics. It's just when they're put into stressful conditions over long periods of time they build up guards to keep the stress from becoming overwhelming (I know I'm using the same point twice)
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I think a society of introverts would have been reasonably successful the difference between introverts and the autistic spectrum is that introverts maintain social empathy and the theory of mind in full they tend to be very successful social players. What makes them introverted is the lack of a social plus from social interaction in and of itself they thusly tend to have a very utilitarian approach to social contact, which is great for a society . I suspect extroversion is somewhat of a vestigal element of personality which was more beneficial when we needed to have a pull keeping us in very tight small communities.
But regardless introverts don't have nearly as many problems as those on the autistic spectrum and as suffering is ther metric I'm using are a much smaller issue if one at all. |
I concede this point, though it's a minor one
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From being on the other end of that I tend to find it breeds resentment.
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no comment
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| Evenon the internet we form social networks , as it develops it will mimic reality more and more. |
but several of the issues autistics have with meatspace is resolved, they gain a certain level of anonymity, and it's easy to find others with similar interests.
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I must admit I find proffessional communication easier too, it seems most of my close friends are made through work or through study. My trick with personal communication is to use set pieces to move things onto topics you can discuss, once the conversation is on a set topic I have much less trouble. |
similar things here
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| Easy solution don't tell people, if you've managed as a HFA to this age I'm sure your pretty good at covering it up. |
Now for a suprise. I was diagnosed late because it took so long to see it was psychological, and not developmental. I showed signs of autism for years before ever being diagnosed.They were just misinterpreted |
Did you just screw up here JD or are you using my answer?
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| I think for society to "fix its problem" in respect to autistic grievances it would pretty much have to dissolve ... well not dissolve but the social intuition and abstraction that neurotypical society rely on would have to be completely revamped. I really think lack of understanding towards autism is a very very small part of the problem. Autistic people have a problem with society because it works in a manner which is somewhat alien to them. The autistic side can be fixed (in your hypothetical) easily and without suffering, to fix society would be a likely impossible undertaking which would probably hurt a lot of people. It's time to be a little practical. |
Or simply accept autistcs for who they really are. If that were done, some changes would be necessary but not as many as you suggest.
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| I'm talking about the part directly caused by the autism, most of the benefits some autistics attain are a result of above average work input and interest a corollary of sucking at the social bit. If you compare HFAs and neurotypicals who invest themselves to a similar degree there isn't that stunning a difference. |
 nope can't think of a good argument.
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| I'm not saying things can't be dealt with to a degree but if it ultimately comes out as a problem it causes suffering and should be cured. |
Having them learning and working together eliminates most problems according to some studies, the guard I'm mentioning for the third time in this post creates most of those problems. and don't most aspects of life come out as a problem, yet we don't try to cure boredom, tiredness, anxiety, or stress; we remedy those.
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35629
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Posted: Sat 2006-11-25 22:47
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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hate to make a double post, but I just want to point out that you, JD, seem to underestimate a person's ability to adapt to uncomfortable situations as evidenced here:
| From http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=666943 |
When a child is diagnosed with autism, one of the first questions a parent asks is what will happen to him when he grows to be a adult?
Some of the earliest studies on children with autism were done right here in Utah in the mid 1980's. Now researchers are trying to find those children who have become adults.
One of the adults from that early study is Curtis Willie.
Curtis doesn't display all the symptoms of autism, such as repetitive behaviors, flapping hands or saying the same phrase over and over again. But he does struggle with relating to and communicating with others.
He agreed to share his story with us, because he believes it may provide hope to others.
Curtis Willie: "Thank you for calling Direct TV. This is Curtis. How can I help you today?"
Curtis Willie, 47, handles customer phone calls about satellite TV service. His boss says he is a good employee who never misses work, and has the ability to visualize whatever technical problem the customer has.
Sonja Rowell/ Convergys Dir. of Operations: "He's very good with customers. He's very detail oriented."
Curtis is very intelligent and has learned to cope with his autism.
Curtis Willie: "In some areas I'm a very slow learner and it's taken tremendous effort. I've worked at things over and over again until I finally pick up on it."
Like many with autism he tends to be a loner, uncomfortable in crowds and social situations.
Curtis Willie: "One of the challenges I face is the common courtesy of making eye contact."
His wife of five years works with him.
Michelle Best-Willie, Curtis' Wife: "Probably I admire his intellect most because he is a genius."
She understands that Curtis likes things the same, so she keeps order in their lives. But she admits communication can be a challenge.
Michelle Best-Willie, Curtis' Wife: "I'm a very vocal, a very mouthy person, and when he can't talk to me it's frustrating between the two of us."
Michelle Best-Willie: "We work it out. It takes patience."
Dr. Bill McMahon of the Brain Institute says Curtis is among about 25% of adults with autism who live and work independently.
William M. McMahon, MD/ The Brain Institute at the University of Utah: "Then there is a larger group, say in the range of 40 percent, who may not be able to work in the private sector, but could work in sheltered workshops."
Others with a lower IQ, other physical or intellectual disabilities, may require full time care or an institution.
For people like Curtis, understanding the condition is the key to a happy life.
Curtis Willie: "It helps to know what you've got. (edit) You are always aware of your disability and there's always a little bit of that, but overall reasonably happy."
If you were part of the 1980's UCLA/ University of Utah study, researchers would like to hear from you. Follow the links above.
That research should provide some interesting clues as to what makes some people with autism more successful than others.
By the way, Curtis did not get any early intervention training like the children get today. Forty-five years ago, people didn't recognize autism.
He has had some special education over the years, but nothing like the intense training kids go through today. He says he's just learned to accept himself and work with his strengths and accept his weaknesses.
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #35631
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 00:36
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| I have no comment at this time. Except, as an alternative to curing autistics, why not have them live and work together if that would be most benificial? It's been shown to work in the past, mainly with LFAs buyt autistics develop a sort of guard when interacting with neurotypicals, whether that be hiding it, as in your case, or clamming up and staying semi-withdrawn in unfamiliar circumstances, as in mine |
Segregation? Sounds problematic and autistic children would still likely have to live in a largely neurotypical society untill they left home. I mean sure it's worth considering, a cure just seems less troublesome for everyone.
There is a sizable autistic pro-cure contingent.
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No. I just needed some time to figure out why I dropped my fomer violence. Effective anger management techniques pretty much stopped my violent streak, though thay were self taught.
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The fact it introduced an unecessary struggle is enough for me, even without considering those who don't get over it.
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Should have defined this better. Who says that going from autistic to normal and from normal to autistic doesn't make you lose something? If you become normal do you still want the object of your autistic affection? or if you go from normal to autistic, do you still enjoy the things you used to do? the transition, as well as the subsequent adaption would be difficult and stressful in their own unique ways.
|
I'm not particularly bothered about the issue of moving between states I'm talking mainly about pre social development curing or even pre-brain development curing. You can't loose anything because you never had anything.
I posited the adaption and loss of past personality as the reasons why adulthood cures were undesirable.
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| I never (okay, rarely) had any desire for social involvement but I guess I could be unique in that aspect. |
You've never wanted a girlfriend? ( as opposed to sex) I'd say that puts you in a minority amongst HFAs but I'm not going by hard figures on that. I'm not talking about joining the glee club here I'm talking about normal social involvements.
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| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Autism#autistic_beautiful_.3F.3F.3F.3F The best I can come up with is this wikipedia conversation which cites a webpage that no longer exists and a rolling stone from 1979 |
As erm ... convincing as that evidence seems I must say it doesn't mesh with my understanding of the science behind the matter.
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| got proof? |
You don't trust me *_*.
I'd post a picture but I don't like doing that on the internet (plus it would make a traceable link between real me and JD for my RL friends) ... plus all the girls here would faint and I wouldn't want them to hurt themselves ^^.
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Well, though this has little to do with your point, I remember reading, on wikipedia, that there are aspies who want to establish a man made island for those who have asperger's and autism, but I can't find it now. Still, I believe that autistics can better associate and bond with other autistics, even if they are LFAs, which explains why autistics tend to marry other autistics. It's just when they're put into stressful conditions over long periods of time they build up guards to keep the stress from becoming overwhelming (I know I'm using the same point twice)
|
It makes sense although to be honest I think I've spent too long working out how to exist in society successfully to get on with other members of the autistic spectrum , particularly people with aspergers they have a tendancy to do socially innapropriate things and I'm rather formal when it comes down to it. Once I was at a big dinner talking to this guy who told me he had aspergers then all of a sudden he stands on the table...
Ultimately however I think segregation is pretty extreme solution for what in your hypothetical is a curable problem.
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| but several of the issues autistics have with meatspace is resolved, they gain a certain level of anonymity, and it's easy to find others with similar interests. |
True I still find eye contact wholly awkward, issues particularly those with facial cues will be resolved but there is still the underlying relational difficulty.
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| Did you just screw up here JD or are you using my answer? |
No comment ^^.
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Or simply accept autistcs for who they really are. If that were done, some changes would be necessary but not as many as you suggest.
|
That would make autism bearable but to make it preferable to a pre-development cure by my metric it must be made worthwhile, this won't happen until society no longer features the aspects autistics find troublesome. Furthermore awareness is useless unless everyone with autism wears their condition on their sleeve I think that would suck, who wants people acting differently around you without need?
| Quote: |
| Having them learning and working together eliminates most problems according to some studies, the guard I'm mentioning for the third time in this post creates most of those problems. and don't most aspects of life come out as a problem, yet we don't try to cure boredom, tiredness, anxiety, or stress; we remedy those. |
Segregation could work in a ways but is uneccessary if we can effectively stop autistics being born.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35633
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 02:41
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
Segregation? Sounds problematic and autistic children would still likely have to live in a largely neurotypical society untill they left home. I mean sure it's worth considering, a cure just seems less troublesome for everyone. |
Still, curing what could be remedied in other ways, and many consider another personality, seems like an extreme measure to me. If all else fails, cure them, but all alternatives should be exhausted first
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| There is a sizable autistic pro-cure contingent. |
there is? I tried googling it and found nothing to suggest such
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| The fact it introduced an unecessary struggle is enough for me, even without considering those who don't get over it. |
Internal struggle? not really. just a gap in my memory, called the summer vacation between 6th and 7th grade.
| Quote: |
I'm not particularly bothered about the issue of moving between states I'm talking mainly about pre social development curing or even pre-brain development curing. You can't loose anything because you never had anything.
I posited the adaption and loss of past personality as the reasons why adulthood cures were undesirable. |
and my reasoning for being against childhood cures has been explained above
| Quote: |
| You've never wanted a girlfriend? ( as opposed to sex) I'd say that puts you in a minority amongst HFAs but I'm not going by hard figures on that. I'm not talking about joining the glee club here I'm talking about normal social involvements. |
I've been resigned to trying online dating for a while now.
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| As erm ... convincing as that evidence seems I must say it doesn't mesh with my understanding of the science behind the matter. |
Five minutes was how long I was searching, mainly because I didn't have enough time
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| You don't trust me *_*. |
you can say whatever you want on the internet but you need to provide proof, else no one will believe you.
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I'd post a picture but I don't like doing that on the internet (plus it would make a traceable link between real me and JD for my RL friends) ... plus all the girls here would faint and I wouldn't want them to hurt themselves ^^. |
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| It makes sense although to be honest I think I've spent too long working out how to exist in society successfully to get on with other members of the autistic spectrum, particularly people with aspergers. |
so have I.
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| they have a tendancy to do socially innapropriate things and I'm rather formal when it comes down to it. Once I was at a big dinner talking to this guy who told me he had aspergers then all of a sudden he stands on the table... |
All I'll say is I have terrible table manners
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| Ultimately however I think segregation is pretty extreme solution for what in your hypothetical is a curable problem. |
Curing seems like an extreme solution for a problem that can be remedied with less overall trouble than finding and curing all newborn autists.
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| True I still find eye contact wholly awkward, issues particularly those with facial cues will be resolved but there is still the underlying relational difficulty. |
Thief!
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| That would make autism bearable but to make it preferable to a pre-development cure by my metric it must be made worthwhile, this won't happen until society no longer features the aspects autistics find troublesome. Furthermore awareness is useless unless everyone with autism wears their condition on their sleeve I think that would suck, who wants people acting differently around you without need? |
see above
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| Segregation could work in a ways but is uneccessary if we can effectively stop autistics being born. |
once again, see above.
Also while searching for autistics who are pro-cure I found something rather bothersome to me:
| From http://www.autisticculture.com/index.php?page=history |
Pro-cure groups such as the National Alliance for Autism Research (NAAR) and Cure Autism Now (CAN) are currently supporting autism genetic research, the ultimate goal of which is prenatal testing which could potentially lead to routine abortion of autistic babies. This research, which also receives funding from the American government through the National Institutes of Health, could result in the development of a prenatal test for autism before the year 2015, as stated by Dr. Joseph Buxbaum, a prominent research scientist who directs the Autism Genome Project at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine.
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I'm pro abortion, but only if the mother doesn't want a child or can't take care of it. Aborting because of some sort of defect bothers me on multiple levels
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #35634
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 06:27
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
Still, curing what could be remedied in other ways, and many consider another personality, seems like an extreme measure to me. If all else fails, cure them, but all alternatives should be exhausted first
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we're dealing with a hypothetical cure so this is all a little academic but I see it as just another post/pre birth screen followed by an injection or some such if necessary. Compared to setting up parallel communities in such a way they can sustain a constant influx from all strata and geography I know which one seems more practical to me.
Also to be honest not all autistic people will want to be segregated particularly those at the lighter end of the spectrum, I'd hate to be in an all autistic town. On top of that due to population limitations these communities may be stifling small for some, overall I'm starting to see suffering re-entering the equation.
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| there is? I tried googling it and found nothing to suggest such |
they don't have their own special group seperate from the mainstream pro-cure groups as far as I'm aware. I'm not suggesting such a group is a majority but as I pointed out way back autistic people probably arn't in the best position to judge whether newly born children should be autistic as there is it feels like somewhat of an emotional threat.
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| Internal struggle? not really. just a gap in my memory, called the summer vacation between 6th and 7th grade. |
Well keep in mind your experience isn't the rule.
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| and my reasoning for being against childhood cures has been explained above |
There seems to be so much above I'm losing track but erm I assume I delivered a rebuttle as to why I thought that reasoning was flawed.
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| I've been resigned to trying online dating for a while now. |
That's all well and good until your in some cafe on the first date with some girl you've never really met. Online dating scares me much more than real dating.
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| Five minutes was how long I was searching, mainly because I didn't have enough time |
Heh don't worry the same laziness stopped me getting links on pro-cure autistics ^^ in my defence it's 6:20am.
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| All I'll say is I have terrible table manners |
I'm dissapointed in you ^^, although apparently the neurotypical crowd are losing all sense of table etiquette (who says they don't try and make autistic people feel normal ^^) as well , a shockingly small number of people know the right cutlery for the right dish and even which hand to hold it in. I can live with people needing a little guidence to eat escargot but really[/rant]
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| Curing seems like an extreme solution for a problem that can be remedied with less overall trouble than finding and curing all newborn autists. |
I guess I just see very early curing as a pretty harmless process with minimal hassle, whereas segregation seems like quite the endeavour for a half-way solution.
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Also while searching for autistics who are pro-cure I found something rather bothersome to me:
I'm pro abortion, but only if the mother doesn't want a child or can't take care of it. Aborting because of some sort of defect bothers me on multiple levels |
Ultimately it's still the decision of the parent to abort, you would still get autistic children because a large number of autistic children are born from struggling older father that and there are a lot of religious nuts who wouldn't abort their child if it had three heads and a permenantly firing pain circuit. This is a common process for many conditions I believe cerebal palsy is often caught and avoided in this way.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35640
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 17:20
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| we're dealing with a hypothetical cure so this is all a little academic but I see it as just another post/pre birth screen followed by an injection or some such if necessary. Compared to setting up parallel communities in such a way they can sustain a constant influx from all strata and geography I know which one seems more practical to me. |
I actually meant trying to treat them first. Segregation would be good if treatment fails, and they wanted to try it, and if segregation failed the cure would be done.
| Quote: |
| Also to be honest not all autistic people will want to be segregated particularly those at the lighter end of the spectrum, I'd hate to be in an all autistic town. On top of that due to population limitations these communities may be stifling small for some, overall I'm starting to see suffering re-entering the equation. |
true
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| they don't have their own special group seperate from the mainstream pro-cure groups as far as I'm aware. I'm not suggesting such a group is a majority but as I pointed out way back autistic people probably arn't in the best position to judge whether newly born children should be autistic as there is it feels like somewhat of an emotional threat. |
and who says normal people are in the best position? Parents do what they think is best for their kids. Problam is they may not always be right
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| Well keep in mind your experience isn't the rule. |
True enough
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| There seems to be so much above I'm losing track but erm I assume I delivered a rebuttle as to why I thought that reasoning was flawed. |
of course we've ben misinterpreting each other left and right, so I excuse that
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| That's all well and good until your in some cafe on the first date with some girl you've never really met. Online dating scares me much more than real dating. |
I'm more comfortable with cyberspace than meatspace when in conversations
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| Heh don't worry the same laziness stopped me getting links on pro-cure autistics ^^ in my defence it's 6:20am. |
and in my defense I was about to get off so my brother could use it and I'm in a debate on the 9/11 wikipedia article. And I'm a professional procastinator
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| I'm dissapointed in you ^^, |
oh shut up. I'm sure you've picked up annoying quirks.
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| although apparently the neurotypical crowd are losing all sense of table etiquette (who says they don't try and make autistic people feel normal ^^) as well , a shockingly small number of people know the right cutlery for the right dish and even which hand to hold it in. I can live with people needing a little guidence to eat escargot but really[/rant] |
True enough
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| I guess I just see very early curing as a pretty harmless process with minimal hassle, whereas segregation seems like quite the endeavour for a half-way solution. |
Treatment, then segregation, then cure.
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| Ultimately it's still the decision of the parent to abort, you would still get autistic children because a large number of autistic children are born from struggling older father that and there are a lot of religious nuts who wouldn't abort their child if it had three heads and a permenantly firing pain circuit. This is a common process for many conditions I believe cerebal palsy is often caught and avoided in this way. |
well okay, if they're going to be suffering then I can see why an abortion could be done, but autism isn't really suffering.
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #35641
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 17:40
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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| Quote: |
| I'm dissapointed in you ^^, although apparently the neurotypical crowd are losing all sense of table etiquette (who says they don't try and make autistic people feel normal ^^) as well , a shockingly small number of people know the right cutlery for the right dish and even which hand to hold it in. |
Indeed - people in general are becoming horribly unmannerly at the table. I was brought up to respect table manners, so seeing people having terrible table manners makes me despair. However, I can't justify bad table manners even if there is a medically justified reason - you have to learn how to go about things in the world in order not to insult others, even if it is difficult. I'll respect people a lot more if they set to transcending their difficulties rather than trying to justify bad manners or selfish behaviour.
I despise rudeness and certain degrees of selfish behaviour. They get right up my nose.
| Quote: |
| and who says normal people are in the best position? |
It's more of an opinion than anything else, to say that people who do not have autistic conditions are in the better position, but I'd tend to agree with that sentiment: I'd rather try to transcend my difficulties and be regarded for my superior attributes than pitied for my "inferior" attributes.
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"Rejection of technology ruins a good mind." - RAK
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #35642
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 18:06
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| I actually meant trying to treat them first. Segregation would be good if treatment fails, and they wanted to try it, and if segregation failed the cure would be done. |
As I've said before I think curing late in life can cause a lot of suffering in and of itself. To me for curing to be effective in maximally reducing pain it must be undertaken as soon as possible in a persons development.
| Quote: |
| and who says normal people are in the best position? Parents do what they think is best for their kids. Problam is they may not always be right |
Parents probably arn't in the best position either, such issues are generally best judged by those who can remain objective and detached from the emotional aspects of the argument. This is why I'm suggesting society make a general decision to implement your hypothetical cure at birth. Ultimately someone has to make the choice, the child is too young the parent is too emotionally involved/parents suck at making medical decisions so society/the medical community has to step in.
| Quote: |
| I'm more comfortable with cyberspace than meatspace when in conversations |
I know I meant eventually dating has to progress to meatspace ... at least I can't imagine enjoying dating that didn't nearly as much as the alternative (am I shallow?)
| Quote: |
| Treatment, then segregation, then cure. |
The problem I have is that segregation requires a massive investment , late cures don't work as well and could be painful(loss of personality, lack of normal childhood development) and treatment has well defined limits.
| Quote: |
| well okay, if they're going to be suffering then I can see why an abortion could be done, but autism isn't really suffering. |
That's a matter of opinion, it may not be as bad as other neural disorders but autism can certainly cause suffering in the opinion of some.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35643
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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Average words per post: 176.08
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 18:28
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| As I've said before I think curing late in life can cause a lot of suffering in and of itself. To me for curing to be effective in maximally reducing pain it must be undertaken as soon as possible in a persons development. |
To me, curing does'nt seem to be necessary right when they're born, it seems to be the most extreme thing to do. Treating may have well defined boundries, but if it helps them function on a better level with normal people then it should be done. However, if that option didn't help them functio on a more normal level and allow them to fit better with society, segregation could be tried, and if they still had too much trouble with communication and the like, then they could be cured, if they chose to.
| Quote: |
| Parents probably arn't in the best position either, such issues are generally best judged by those who can remain objective and detached from the emotional aspects of the argument. This is why I'm suggesting society make a general decision to implement your hypothetical cure at birth. Ultimately someone has to make the choice, the child is too young the parent is too emotionally involved/parents suck at making medical decisions so society/the medical community has to step in. |
and society is objective and detached? You're talking about the society that watches celebrities, believes half the stuff they hear on TV, and start screaming for revenge after a terrorist attack? Remember, the only people called autistic by the media are the LFAs, and many books and movies have given autistics a bad name (see Rain Man). I wouldn't trust abut half the decisions society makes
| Quote: |
| I know I meant eventually dating has to progress to meatspace ... at least I can't imagine enjoying dating that didn't nearly as much as the alternative (am I shallow?) |
Shallow? I doubt that. but by the time it got face to face I would have prepared them to expect me to be what I actually am.
| Quote: |
| The problem I have is that segregation requires a massive investment , late cures don't work as well and could be painful(loss of personality, lack of normal childhood development) and treatment has well defined limits. |
I have made my case at the top of this post.
| Quote: |
| That's a matter of opinion, it may not be as bad as other neural disorders but autism can certainly cause suffering in the opinion of some. |
And in the opinion of some, the rapture is going to happen sometime in this generation. Society is notorious for believing whatever propaganda you feed it as long as it's properly disseminated.
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #35644
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 19:13
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35646
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
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Average words per post: 176.08
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Posted: Sun 2006-11-26 21:09
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: Empowering the Nerds/Nurture-Nature? |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
Interesting topic, AceBrock.  |
Thank you. By the way, shouldn't Marylin Manson be on that lst? Perhaps I'm reading tooo much into that creepy nut.
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Teimuraz Sakirovadze
Minister of Peace
Post #35673
Joined: 23 Jul 2005
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Posted: Tue 2006-11-28 02:16
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| Politics: Technocratic Syndicalist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: Empowering the Nerds/Nurture-Nature? |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| carldiesturmer wrote: |
who wants to be normal?Pretty insipid for a person, so ordinary not worth paying attention to, or raising one's curiosity, with the mediocre common poeple... I am with you....
[...]
Compulsory Curing of Differences?
Sounds very Authoritarian....to make the unpredictability of human character an averaged out statistic.. |
I share you perspective wholeheartedly, Carl. As long as no people get hurt, I can't see why so-called treatment should be forced on any individual. Where to draw the line between eccentricity and disorder? For instance, here's a selection of people who are believed to have suffered from some kind of mental disorder, be it schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression, anxiety disorder, attention deficit disorder or ADD:
Jack Kerouac
Honore de Balzac
Johann Goethe
Syd Barrett
John Nash
Ludwig van Beethoven
Lord Byron
Winston Churchill
Kurt Cobain
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Charles Dickens
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald
William Faulkner
Ernst Hemingway
Herman Hesse
Jimi Hendrix
John Keats
Marilyn Monroe
Jim Morrison
Edvard Munch
Isac Newton
Florence Nightingale
Edgar Allan Poe
Robert Schumann
Robert Louis Stevenson
Mark Twain
Virginia Woolf
Abraham Lincoln
Michelangelo
Eugene O'Neill
Leo Tolstoy
Vincent van Gogh
Albert Einstein
Thomas Edison
George Bernard Shaw
Jules Verne
H.C. Andersen
Alexander Graham Bell
Agatha Christie
Salvador Dali
Leonardo Da Vinci
Galileo
Nostradamus
Lord Tennyson
Sigmund Freud
John Stuart Mill
Henrik Ibsen
Emile Zola
I believe that there are strong tendencies towards mental conformism in our societies, and if the means of conforming are too effective, we may actually slow down or even halt progress.
Interesting topic, AceBrock. |
Ace, it'd be interesting to see that character on the list. Hm.
Let's see here....
Syd Barrett - His music is great. A shame he passed away several months ago. -.-
Winston Churchill - We shall fight them on the beaches... Good ol' Brit. ^^ What was his prognosis? >_>
Kurt Cobain - I have a book about him somewhere, but his death is an enigma.
Marilyn Monroe - Too many pills, I suppose. Now if only the "Happy Birthday" song she sang was recorded... cha-ching.
Jim Morrison - And perception will break away, ne? I have a lot of music from him as well.
Jimi Hendrix - You know....
Emile Zola - Suprprisingly I know enough about him, but what disorder he had I know nothing of. -.-
Sigmund Freud - Haha. "Oral fixation."
Abraham Lincoln - Even with bouts of deep depression, he made headway. ^^ Admirable.
... I think Marilyn Manson could be included. I dunno, though.
-Kirov
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27-X-90 - 25-XI-08
ДА ЗДРАВСТВУЕТ НАШЕГО КИРОВА! |
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One Of The Few
Minister of Truth
Post #35678
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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Average words per post: 141.16
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Posted: Tue 2006-11-28 14:36
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Scotland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
I touched your point about the effect of autism on the non-autistic community in my first responce, I do think there are societal advantages namely autistic savants. However I think the measure of curing a disease has always to be from the position of the sufferer. For example if a disease caused someone to produce electrical energy through super efficient photosynthesis that could be transfered directly into the national grid, but caused them excruciating pain (and inconvenience) it would render a great benefit to society but I would consider witholding the cure on this basis immoral. |
I was actually thinking of the cost that society pays for autists not being able to fully take part within it. Of course, this would only apply to the almost totally non-socially functional, but I think the interests of others need to be considered.
Very autists are savants anyway, and I'm not sure quite how useful their talents are in the modern computer age.
_________________
If you can't say what you mean then you'll never mean what you say
God holds no fears
Death no worries
And while good is readily attainable
Evil is readily endurable |
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #35685
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Posted: Tue 2006-11-28 15:36
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| One Of The Few wrote: |
I was actually thinking of the cost that society pays for autists not being able to fully take part within it. Of course, this would only apply to the almost totally non-socially functional, but I think the interests of others need to be considered.
Very autists are savants anyway, and I'm not sure quite how useful their talents are in the modern computer age. |
I agree when we start talking about things like segregation and care for LFAs both of which would require heavy investment from the neurotypical community which could be avoided with the hypothetical cure.It's true that few autistic savants are fairly few but I felt it was worth mentioning in a similar function to IO's list. My key metric however is still suffering on the part of the patient and not the tax burden(damn socialist) I think financial cost only becomes pronounced when you start trying to implement silly behemoth projects like segregation or permenant care, normal HFA treatment is pretty cheap comparitively speaking.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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One Of The Few
Minister of Truth
Post #35723
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 3259
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Average words per post: 141.16
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Posted: Thu 2006-11-30 12:17
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Scotland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| I agree when we start talking about things like segregation and care for LFAs both of which would require heavy investment from the neurotypical community which could be avoided with the hypothetical cure. |
I think it would depend on the cost and the benefits to society. Of course, moral benefits also have to be taken into account, as the way some members of society are treated can affect the rest of the society. Nevertheless, to be consistant and good (in the strongest moral sense) I believe morality must always value to the cost to itself as a whole above the cost to influential individuals within it.
| JD wrote: |
| It's true that few autistic savants are fairly few |
Apparently so, judging by this forum. 
| JD wrote: |
| but I felt it was worth mentioning in a similar function to IO's list. |
Of course, the problem then arises: does one simply refuse to treat savants if they are useful to society? There's a very good X-Men comic waiting to have its subtext fashioned out of this debate.
| JD wrote: |
| My key metric however is still suffering on the part of the patient and not the tax burden(damn socialist) I think financial cost only becomes pronounced when you start trying to implement silly behemoth projects like segregation or permenant care, normal HFA treatment is pretty cheap comparitively speaking. |
But aren't silly behemoth projects what socialism is all about?
Seriously though, I agree. I think the whole issue needs to be put into context: if I can have a reasoned debate with a bunch of autistics online, then they are presumably functional to almost all intents and purposes. Simple treatment can be provided if requested; a total cure seems to be unnecessary unless in the case of the fully disabled. Without wanting to cause offense by my use of this example, I would compare autism to a tumour: sure, it can be a problem, but unless it causes serious problems to the individual, I can't see the demand for radical treatment.
_________________
If you can't say what you mean then you'll never mean what you say
God holds no fears
Death no worries
And while good is readily attainable
Evil is readily endurable |
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #35730
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Posted: Thu 2006-11-30 16:42
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| One Of The Few wrote: |
I think it would depend on the cost and the benefits to society. Of course, moral benefits also have to be taken into account, as the way some members of society are treated can affect the rest of the society. Nevertheless, to be consistant and good (in the strongest moral sense) I believe morality must always value to the cost to itself as a whole above the cost to influential individuals within it. |
Oh I agree I just tend to disregard relatively small financial costs as I find there are usually hidden costs to cutting even a few people out of the pervading standard of wellbeing.
| Quote: |
Apparently so, judging by this forum.
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Ugg I need to stop hacking edits into the middle of my sentances ^^.
| Quote: |
Of course, the problem then arises: does one simply refuse to treat savants if they are useful to society? There's a very good X-Men comic waiting to have its subtext fashioned out of this debate.
|
As I said I think you have to place the individual suffering above general societal weakness in the majority of cases discussing individual treatment. Creating a second class of citizens suffering of the few for the many always seems to be a dangerous proposition in my books (almost as much as suffering of the many for the few, don't get me wrong if I'm starting to sound less than socialistic).
If we look at IO's list whilst they are certainly all people who have helped society in their own way, they are hardly the happiest collection of individuals within humanities tomes.
| Quote: |
But aren't silly behemoth projects what socialism is all about?
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I'll ignore that ^^
| Quote: |
Seriously though, I agree. I think the whole issue needs to be put into context: if I can have a reasoned debate with a bunch of autistics online, then they are presumably functional to almost all intents and purposes. Simple treatment can be provided if requested; a total cure seems to be unnecessary unless in the case of the fully disabled. Without wanting to cause offense by my use of this example, I would compare autism to a tumour: sure, it can be a problem, but unless it causes serious problems to the individual, I can't see the demand for radical treatment. |
Is it really so radical a treatment? I could function reasonably with a sprained ankle a common cold or a headache but a cure to any of these seems simply common sense if available. The difference arises in the creation of an intelligence dependant on the malady in question, at this point forced curing becomes comparable to murder. But if we can simply prevent this condition from occuring without the involvement of contingent personalities as the hypothetical suggests the curing again seems to enter the realm of common sense.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35733
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
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Average words per post: 176.08
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Thu 2006-11-30 19:04
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| Is it really so radical a treatment? |
Yes
| Quote: |
| I could function reasonably with a sprained ankle a common cold or a headache but a cure to any of these seems simply common sense if available. |
Yeah but if you're born that way, and it has nothing to do with drugs, why try to change you? Conjoined twins are still very attached to each other after being seperated, after all.
| Quote: |
| The difference arises in the creation of an intelligence dependant on the malady in question, at this point forced curing becomes comparable to murder. |
yes.
| Quote: |
| But if we can simply prevent this condition from occuring without the involvement of contingent personalities as the hypothetical suggests the curing again seems to enter the realm of common sense. |
Not to me. Curing seems extreme. Unfortunately, before I can debate in depth, I'm going to neeed to end the conflict on the 9/11 wikipedia article. it's screwing with my thoughts, and starting to make me physically ill.
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JOHNNYBEGOOD
Inner Party Leader
Post #35741
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Posted: Fri 2006-12-01 06:42
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| Politics: Zionist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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If I may add my two cents in this discussion, I actually like myself more when I'm on my meds. It gives me greater flexibility of thought and increases my mental stamina. I know it's not just the placebo effect, either. I take anphetimines, so if I didn't need them I would become shitfaced instead of focused. So really, it doesn't change my personality. It just makes thinking in the abscence of extreme stimulus easier.
On the other hand, that's for AD/HD and not necessarily autism. I have both, but the autism is supposedly minor. I'm not exactly sure where the symptoms cross over, so I can't really give an unbiased testimony.
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35742
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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Posted: Fri 2006-12-01 06:54
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JOHNNYBEGOOD wrote: |
If I may add my two cents in this discussion, I actually like myself more when I'm on my meds. It gives me greater flexibility of thought and increases my mental stamina. I know it's not just the placebo effect, either. I take anphetimines, so if I didn't need them I would become shitfaced instead of focused. So really, it doesn't change my personality. It just makes thinking in the abscence of extreme stimulus easier.
On the other hand, that's for AD/HD and not necessarily autism. I have both, but the autism is supposedly minor. I'm not exactly sure where the symptoms cross over, so I can't really give an unbiased testimony. |
I was originally diagnosed with ADD (or was it ADHD? I can't remember anymore) actually, but the meds (ritalin at the time) didn't rreally help me focus. After I was diagnosed with autism I was put on three meds for anxiety issues (Ritalin, Zyprexa, and Buspar) and I made drastic improvements. I've been off said med for about three years now. And that's why I advocate treatment.
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35769
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Posted: Mon 2006-12-04 06:07
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Here's a blog post that shows my "persecution complex" isn't totally unfounded: http://joyofautism.blogspot.com/2006/12/unremarkable-autism.html
also, I take it that those who haven't posted have no real opinion on the debate?
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2+2=5
Committee Member
Post #35773
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Posted: Mon 2006-12-04 09:04
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| Politics: Atheist |
Country: Germany |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
also, I take it that those who haven't posted have no real opinion on the debate? |
It's just that I don't know too much about autism (or any of the forms it can take); I don't know how much it would limit your social abilities or anything else in your life. I voted the last option, just for middle grounds.
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Det snurrar i min skalle. |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #35783
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Posted: Mon 2006-12-04 19:35
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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try wikipedia: autism and for an easy way to look at both sides of the debate, google autism (pro-cure) and autistic (anti-cure). [/url]
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walls
Committee Member
Post #35959
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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Posted: Tue 2006-12-12 13:42
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| Politics: Whatever Hollywood tells me to believe |
Country: United States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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We have a new breed of autistic children, and they probably won't become musical savants.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html
| Quote: |
| Investigators have shown that there is a direct relationship between increasing doses of mercury in vaccines and autism. In the 1950s, with an immunization schedule limited to four vaccines (against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, and smallpox), 1 in 10,000 children developed this disease. As vaccines for other diseases were added, health care providers began injecting increasingly larger doses of mercury into children. Those born in 1981 were given 135 micrograms of mercury (on average), and one case of autism occurred in every 2,600 children born that year. With the addition of hepatitis B vaccine (injected on the day of birth) and one for Haemophilus influenzae Type b, providers injected 246 micrograms of mercury into children born in 1996. Autism occurred in one out of every 350 of these children. Today, providers follow an immunization schedule, prepared by the CDC and approved by the AAP and AAFP, that includes 13 vaccines given, with variable numbers of booster shots, 33 times before a child reaches the age of 2 (when the development of the brain is completed). Autism now afflicts 1 in 100 boys and 1 in 400 girls, and physicians diagnose 100,000 new cases of this disease every year in the U.S (using diagnostic criteria, in the DSM-IV, that is more restrictive than the previous DSM-IIIR). Over the last 30 years more than one million children have come down with this disease, and currently one in every 68 families in America has an autistic child. |
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satan reads the bible that god is the object of sacrifice. - Parrotse
In Soviet Russia, you die for the sins of Jesus. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #35962
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
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Posted: Tue 2006-12-12 17:17
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| Politics: Crusader |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| walls wrote: |
We have a new breed of autistic children, and they probably won't become musical savants.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html
| Quote: |
| Investigators have shown that there is a direct relationship between increasing doses of mercury in vaccines and autism. In the 1950s, with an immunization schedule limited to four vaccines (against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, and smallpox), 1 in 10,000 children developed this disease. As vaccines for other diseases were added, health care providers began injecting increasingly larger doses of mercury into children. Those born in 1981 were given 135 micrograms of mercury (on average), and one case of autism occurred in every 2,600 children born that year. With the addition of hepatitis B vaccine (injected on the day of birth) and one for Haemophilus influenzae Type b, providers injected 246 micrograms of mercury into children born in 1996. Autism occurred in one out of every 350 of these children. Today, providers follow an immunization schedule, prepared by the CDC and approved by the AAP and AAFP, that includes 13 vaccines given, with variable numbers of booster shots, 33 times before a child reaches the age of 2 (when the development of the brain is completed). Autism now afflicts 1 in 100 boys and 1 in 400 girls, and physicians diagnose 100,000 new cases of this disease every year in the U.S (using diagnostic criteria, in the DSM-IV, that is more restrictive than the previous DSM-IIIR). Over the last 30 years more than one million children have come down with this disease, and currently one in every 68 families in America has an autistic child. |
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Whichever scientist came to that conclusion needs a slap to the face.
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walls
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 01:59
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no numbers then. if you live in america i dare you to go into the public schools. they got special rooms for retards now.
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Acebrock
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 03:43
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| walls wrote: |
| no numbers then. if you live in america i dare you to go into the public schools. they got special rooms for retards now. |
They've had special-ed classrooms for as long as I've been in public school; I even ended up in one for two of the first three years of my public schooling (first and second grades), and calling autistics retards, is seen as a personal attack in a great many circles. Also there are more HFAs (many of which have IQs over 100, the average) than LFAs. Please get your facts straight before giving a whole group a deragatory label. especialy when you know members of said group frequent the venue in which you are giving said label.
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Zoon
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 04:41
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| walls wrote: |
| no numbers then. if you live in america i dare you to go into the public schools. they got special rooms for retards now. |
My point was that perhaps nowadays they are simply better at detecting autisms than in the 50's. I know kids whose parents claim they are autistic though I never would have known. They are getting better at detecting very moderate autisms. Now it seems that any one who is not perfectly normal in every way can be called autistic. I might even be considered autistic by many doctors but I have never bothered to look into that - it wouldn't change much would it?
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Acebrock
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 05:23
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| Zoon wrote: |
| walls wrote: |
| no numbers then. if you live in america i dare you to go into the public schools. they got special rooms for retards now. |
My point was that perhaps nowadays they are simply better at detecting autisms than in the 50's. I know kids whose parents claim they are autistic though I never would have known. They are getting better at detecting very moderate autisms. Now it seems that any one who is not perfectly normal in every way can be called autistic. I might even be considered autistic by many doctors but I have never bothered to look into that - it wouldn't change much would it? |
I won't disagree with that, mainly becuse of your MBTI and this wikipedia discussion (read through the discussions that follow for more info)
I think all or at least most INTs and ISTs could be diagnosed as autistic due to the fact that they have many traits that are similar to autism.
Also It would be interesting to see what people here score on this test. I scored 32 which is lower than I expected but I'm not sure I was totally honest on some questions
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walls
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 15:16
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maybe it's all genetic, but i don't like the contamination of our environment and our bodies with neurotoxic chemicals.
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One Of The Few
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 18:42
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| AceBrock wrote: |
Also It would be interesting to see what people here score on this test. I scored 32 which is lower than I expected but I'm not sure I was totally honest on some questions |
I got a score of 20. It was quite a difficult test, because some of the questions asked about things that I don't normally consider.
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One Of The Few
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 18:46
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| walls wrote: |
| no numbers then. if you live in america i dare you to go into the public schools. they got special rooms for retards now. |
They've had special-ed classrooms for as long as I've been in public school; I even ended up in one for two of the first three years of my public schooling (first and second grades), and calling autistics retards, is seen as a personal attack in a great many circles. Also there are more HFAs (many of which have IQs over 100, the average) than LFAs. Please get your facts straight before giving a whole group a deragatory label. especialy when you know members of said group frequent the venue in which you are giving said label. |
Aren't autistics socially retarded, to some extent?
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Zoon
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 19:19
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21 for me.
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JD-sama
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 20:05
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weird I scored dead on 32 also ... I thought I'd score a little closer to the average to be honest. I don't have many problems predicting how people will act or considering things from the perspectives of others(bar extroverted behaviour) which is a big thing and the test seemed to concentrate on it a lot.
I've probably written this in a thousand threads by now but I'm INTJ so acebrock's rule fits I guess.
Also as the OOTF's query as to whether all autistics are to some degree socially retarded. Technically one could answer yes, but they aren't necessarily more socially retarded than someone who is just shy or introverted, they just approach social situations and social understanding in a somewhat different way. A shy person has an intuitive understanding of other people and the way they fit into a social situation but the knowledge scares them, speaking personally my intuitive understanding is probably a little worse but I've made up for it with learnt understanding and acting. In my head I know I'm treating social situations somewhat coldly like a maths puzzle but on the outside I'm really rather popular if I don't say so myself.
Then again I've known neurotypical introverts who describe their social interactions very similarly so it's a little hard to draw a line.
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One Of The Few
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 21:10
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| Also as the OOTF's query as to whether all autistics are to some degree socially retarded. Technically one could answer yes, but they aren't necessarily more socially retarded than someone who is just shy or introverted, they just approach social situations and social understanding in a somewhat different way. A shy person has an intuitive understanding of other people and the way they fit into a social situation but the knowledge scares them, speaking personally my intuitive understanding is probably a little worse but I've made up for it with learnt understanding and acting. In my head I know I'm treating social situations somewhat coldly like a maths puzzle but on the outside I'm really rather popular if I don't say so myself. |
So it's not that autistics aren't retarded, it's that the descriptive statement implies a normative judgement of values that offends; and furthermore one can extend the criterium of "socially retarded" to a number of people who don't have specialised facilities in schools. The plot thickens, Horatio.
| JD wrote: |
| Then again I've known neurotypical introverts who describe their social interactions very similarly so it's a little hard to draw a line. |
There's certainly some unspoken and unnecessary dichotomy here, like the smell of a preying pigoon.
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Acebrock
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Posted: Wed 2006-12-13 23:10
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| One Of The Few wrote: |
| JD-sama wrote: |
| Also as the OOTF's query as to whether all autistics are to some degree socially retarded. Technically one could answer yes, but they aren't necessarily more socially retarded than someone who is just shy or introverted, they just approach social situations and social understanding in a somewhat different way. A shy person has an intuitive understanding of other people and the way they fit into a social situation but the knowledge scares them, speaking personally my intuitive understanding is probably a little worse but I've made up for it with learnt understanding and acting. In my head I know I'm treating social situations somewhat coldly like a maths puzzle but on the outside I'm really rather popular if I don't say so myself. |
So it's not that autistics aren't retarded, it's that the descriptive statement implies a normative judgement of values that offends; and furthermore one can extend the criterium of "socially retarded" to a number of people who don't have specialised facilities in schools. The plot thickens, Horatio. |
And the discussion starts moving to "what is autism?" Interesting.
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