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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
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Posted: Mon 2006-03-06 21:51
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| Politics: Satanist |
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| Nietzsche |
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Nietzsche: the name can conjure up thoughts of philosophical genius, or moral racism. I think he's a highly misunderstood sort of man.
| From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche |
Nihilism and the death of God
For Nietzsche, nihilism is the outcome of repeated frustrations in the search for meaning. He diagnosed nihilism as a latent presence within the very foundations of European culture, and thus, as a necessary and approaching destiny. The religious worldview had already suffered a number of challenges from contrary perspectives grounded in philosophical skepticism, and in modern science's evolutionary and heliocentric theory.
Nietzsche sees this intellectual condition as a new challenge to European culture, which has extended itself beyond a sort of point-of-no-return. Nietzsche conceptualizes this with the famous statement, 'God is dead', which appears prominently in The Gay Science and Thus Spoke Zarathustra. The statement suggests the impending crisis that European thought faces in the wake of the irreparable disturbances to its traditional foundations.
Nietzsche treats this phrase as more than a provocative declaration, but almost reverently, as it represents the potential of a nihilism that arrests growth and progress in the midst of an overwhelming absurdity and meaninglessness:
The greatest recent event -- that 'God is dead', that the belief in the Christian god has become unbelievable -- is already beginning to cast its first shadows over Europe. For the few at least, whose eyes -- the suspicion in whose eyes is strong and subtle enough for this spectacle, some sun seems to have set and some ancient and profound trust has been turned into doubt; to them our old world must appear daily more like evening, more mistrustful, stranger, 'older'. But in the main one may say: The event itself is far too great, too distant, too remote from the multitude's capacity for comprehension even for the tidings of it to be thought of as having arrived as yet. Much less may one suppose that many people know as yet what this event really means -- and how much must collapse now that this faith has been undermined because it was built upon this faith, propped up by it, grown into it; for example, the whole of our European morality. This long plenitude and sequence of breakdown, destruction, ruin, and cataclysm that is now impending -- who could guess enough of it today to be compelled to play the teacher and advance proclaimer of this monstrous logic of terror, the prophet of a gloom and an eclipse of the sun whose like has probably never yet occurred on earth? (Gay Science, Book V, sec. 343, trans. Walter Kaufmann)
The first instance of the phrase occurs at the beginning of Book III of The Gay Science (section 108), and again prominently in section 125. |
The concept of nihilism in Nietzsche's various works has spawned more than one inspirational philosophe, and political movement. His concept of nihilism is a bit misunderstood, since if he were truly nihilistic, he wouldn't need to mention "ubermensch" as a form of collective hope for the continuation of human intellect and the race itself. I believe that his concept of nihilism meant the seeming absence of a god. Without such, Man loses his will to purpose. Nietzsche realized this, and philosophized of "ubermensch" and the "will to power".
The phrase "God is dead" is just as misunderstood as his position on nihilism. Some actually think that he thought god actually existed, and then died either of boredom or of lost hope for the human race. What Nietzsche meant was that we have to live our lives free from the collective boogeyman, i.e. god. Institutionalized worship is a means of breeding stupidity.
| From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche |
Amor fati and the eternal recurrence
The idea of eternal recurrence is central to the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche. Nietzsche first encountered the idea in the works of Heinrich Heine, who speculated that there would one day be a person born with the same thought processes as himself, and that the same was true of every other person on the planet. Nietzsche expanded on this thought to form his theory, which he put forth in The Gay Science and developed in Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
On a few occasions in his notebooks, Nietzsche discusses the possibility of the Eternal Recurrence as cosmological truth (see Arthur Danto, Nietzsche as Philosopher for a detailed analysis of these efforts), but in the works he prepared for publication, it is treated as the ultimate method of life affirmation. According to Nietzsche, it would require a sincere Amor Fati (Love of Fate), not simply to endure, but to wish for the eternal recurrence of all events exactly as they occurred---all of the pain and joy and the embarrassment and glory.
Nietzsche calls the idea "horrifying and paralyzing", and he also states that the burden of this idea is the "heaviest weight" imaginable (das schwerste Gewicht). The wish for the eternal return of all events would mark the ultimate affirmation of life:
What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more' ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: 'You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine.' (The Gay Science)
As described by Nietzsche, the eternal return is more than merely an intellectual concept or challenge, it is akin to a koan, or a psychological device that occupies one's entire consciousness stimulating a transformation of consciousness known as metanoia.
Nehamas wrote in Nietzsche: Life as Literature that there are three ways of seeing the eternal recurrence. "(A) My life will recur in exactly identical fashion." This is a totally fatalistic approach to the idea. "(B) My life may recur in exactly identical fashion." This second view is a conditional assertion of cosmology, but fails to capture what Nieztsche refers to in GS, 341. Finally, "(C) If my life were to recur, then it could recur only in identical fashion." Nehemas shows that this interpretation is totally independent of physics and does not presuppose the truth of cosmology. Nehamas' interpretation is that if individuals constitute themselves through their actions the only way to maintain themselves as they are is to live in a reoccurrence of past actions (Nehamas 153). |
Eternal reccurance sounds like reincarnation because in a sense, it is, from a Darwinist point of view. Instead of a soul being reborn, an identical sort of person is born that is exactly, in terms of thought processes, the same as another individual from long ago. I don't adhere to this, because for one there's no proof, and secondly, because it seems too much like Eastern mysticism.
| From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche |
Overman
There is some controversy over who or what Nietzsche considered an overman (or "superman"; in German, Übermensch). Not only is there some basis to think that Nietzsche was skeptical about individual identity and the notion of subject, but there was never a concrete example of the overman.
Nietzsche coined the terms herd instinct or slave morality, which represents the kind of morality or ideology produced by a culture or a society. The herd instinct is the inevitable consequence of society, and it is extremely difficult for an individual to take on a value or moral system different from society's. The overman is the individual who can overcome the herd instinct, who can take on values and morals not of the society. This is contrasted with one who wields power over others (although the overman, having overcome himself, will consequently dominate those who have not); the overman is about being "judge and avenger and victim of one's own law.", rather than that of the others or one's society. As such, the overman creates his own values.
Since Nietzsche never set out who was an overman, it is possibly an ideal or a theoretical construct designed to point out that it is difficult, if not impossible, to break free from society's ideological and moral grasp. As an intellectual exercise, contemporary thinkers have asked who or what could have been an overman. Could rulers such as Stalin or Hitler be an overman? Given that rulers represent the moralities and ideologies of their time, rather than creating new ones, the answer is "No." The concept of the overman appears to be limited to an intellectual or artist, rather than the political leaders that Nietzsche despised. |
From my own reading of Nietzsche, I feel that the "ubermensch" is his conceptual idea of a highly individual human being, free from ideology, and free to shape his life into whatever form he wishes. In effect, the ubermenschen would rule the untermensch, because from his perspective, power is for the responsible, and is the natural order of things. If we examine Satanic writings, we find that Anton LaVey was perhaps greatly inspired by one individual, our Nietzsche. Then again, since Nietzsche never did specify what an ubermensch is exactly, it's purely based in our own subjective perspectives what the definition means.
| From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche |
Master morality and slave morality
Nietzsche argued that there were two types of morality, a master morality that springs actively from the 'noble man' and a slave morality that develops reactively within the weak man. These two moralities are not simple inversions of one another, they are two different value systems; master morality fits actions into a scale of 'good' or 'bad' whereas slave morality fits actions into a scale of 'good' or 'evil'.
Nietzsche defined master morality as the morality of the strong-willed. For these men the 'good' is the noble, strong and powerful, while the 'bad' is the weak, cowardly, timid and petty. Master morality begins in the 'noble man' with a spontaneous idea of the 'good', then the idea of 'bad' develops in opposition to it. (On the Genealogy of Morals, First Essay, Section 11) He said: "The noble type of man experiences itself as determining values; it does not need approval; it judges, "what is harmful to me is harmful in itself"; it knows itself to be that which first accords honor to things; it is value-creating." (Beyond Good and Evil)
Slave morality begins in those people who are weak, uncertain of themselves, oppressed and abused. The essence of slave morality is utility: the good is what is most useful for the community as a whole. Since the powerful are few in number compared to the masses of the weak, the weak gain power vis-a-vis the strong by treating those qualities that are valued by the powerful as "evil," and those qualities that enable sufferers to endure their lot as "good." Thus patience, humility, pity, submissiveness to authority, and the like, are considered good.
Slave morality begins in a ressentiment that turns creative and gives birth to values. (Ressentiment was a term coined by Nietzsche to describe the feeling of the weak, unhealthy and ugly towards those who have fared better in life.) The slave regards the virtues of beauty, power, strength and wealth as 'evil' in an act of revenge against those who have them in abundance. (On the Genealogy of Morals, First Essay, Section 10) Slave morality is therefore a reactionary morality because 'good' does not spring creatively from the individual but develops as a negation of the values of the powerful. The noble person conceives of goodness first and later determines what is 'bad' while the slave conceives of 'evil' first and fashions his own conception of 'good' in opposition to this.
One of the main themes in Nietzsche's work is that ancient Roman society was grounded in master morality, and that this morality disappeared as the slave morality of Christianity spread through ancient Rome. Nietzsche was concerned with the state of European culture during his lifetime and therefore focused much of his analysis on the history of master and slave morality within Europe. Occasional references, however, also suggest that he meant these terms to be applied to other societies.
However, as with so many ideas in Nietzsche's work, there is no material manifestation of this idea, no hard and fast difference between that which is created by the master morality and that created by the slave. While Nietzsche stated repeatedly that the master morality was necessary for the advancement of humanity (through superhuman - übermenschliche - deeds), he gave examples of where these advances were made through the use of the tenets of the slave morality. The second essay of On the Genealogy of Morals is an indication of this insight, as well as his longstanding fascination with Jesus. Mastery for Nietzsche was the creation of values, and a recurring theme (especially in Thus Spoke Zarathustra) is how even what might seem bad can be, must be, taken up into a masterful life. As Zarathustra says (in Part II, Manly Prudence) : "he who lives amongst men must know how to wash himself with dirty water." Nietzsche gives a concise investigation of how any idea might be used masterfully in the ninth aphorism of Beyond Good on Evil, concerning Stoicism.
According to Nietzsche, the Cartesian proofs for the existence of God are all examples of logic only a master from the nobility would invent. Thomas Aquinas' notions of what constitutes the "good life" is a particular example of what "good" might mean to a master. Nietzsche claimed that such notions of the good life would have their root in the discipline and punishment Aquinas received as a child from the hands of his father. |
In a sense, I agree with the concept of Master/slave mentality. The Roman Empire indeed was a conglomoration of "will-to-power" ideals and tempered Roman steel. Christianity in turn taught that submission and meekness were virtues. I can see why Nietzsche hated Christianity. But when he describes the Master mentality as being possessed only by the strong, and the slave mentality as being possessed only by the weak, I disagree. I know people who are naturally submissive, and realize this and act on it. They are not weak people. To categorize "slaves" as weak people is an inaccurate stereotype. And as for "Masters", not all are benevolent or strong. Some are sadistic monsters, and some are weak people with overactive egos.
But Nietzsche was right about the mentality change from Roman paganism to Roman Catholicism. One philosophy of "might is right" was replaced by "turn the other cheek", in concept. Of course, no one ever fully adheres completely to any ideology, but in effect, the Roman Empire was dulled with what Nietzsche would call a slave mentality. The Roman people were no longer, in concept, as cruel or oppressive as they once were. Not to say that Darwinist brutality is right, but that in the perspective of continuity, the Romans didn't have the spirit to fight the coming barbarians. Slave mentalities tend to glorify weakness and submission, and submission is the last thing you need to do when facing a barbarian invasion.
| From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche |
Christianity as an institution and Jesus
In Nietzsche's book the Anti-Christ, Nietzsche fights against how Christianity has become an ideology set forth by institutions like churches, and how churches have failed to represent the life of Jesus. It is important, for Nietzsche, to distinguish between the religion of Christianity and the person of Jesus. Nietzsche attacked Christian religion as it was represented by churches and institutions for what he called its "transvaluation" of healthy instinctive values. Transvaluation is the process by which the meaning of a concept or ideology can be reversed to its opposite. He went beyond agnostic and atheistic thinkers of the Enlightenment, who felt that Christianity was simply untrue. He claimed that it may have been deliberately propagated as a subversive religion (a "psychological warfare weapon" or what some would call a "memetic virus") within the Roman Empire by the Apostle Paul as a form of covert revenge for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple during the Jewish War.
Nietzsche contrasts the Christians with Jesus, whom he greatly admired. Nietzsche argues that Jesus transcended the moral influences of his time by creating his own set of values. As such Jesus represents a step towards the overman. Ultimately, however, Nietzsche claims that, unlike the overman, who embraces life, Jesus denied reality in favor of his "kingdom of God," and that Jesus' refusal to defend himself, and subsequent death, were logical consequences of this total disengagement. Nietzsche then analyzes the history of Christianity, finding it to be a progressively grosser distortion of the teachings of Jesus. He criticizes the early Christians for turning Jesus into a martyr and Jesus' life into a story of the redemption of mankind in order to gain power over the masses, finding them to be cowardly, vulgar, and resentful. He argues that Christianity had become more and more corrupted, as successive generations further misunderstood the life of Jesus. By the 19th century, Nietzsche concludes, Christianity had become so worldly as to be a parody of itself--a total inversion of a worldview which was, in the beginning, nihilistic. |
Nietzsche here shows a deep belief of his, that Christianity, in its slave mentality, allowed the virtues of the masses (weakness, stupidity, ignorance, etc) to impose itself on the rest of society. In effect, Nietzsche believed in stratification. On the bottom must be the masses, allowed to collectively rot themselves with their own stupidity. Higher up, people who can think and do, would be the ones running society. In a sense, it's meritocratic, or, based upon one's actions and worth. Satanism probably obtained "responsibility to the responsible" from Nietzsche's views upon social division.
| From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche |
The Will to Power
The “will to power” is a controversial concept in Nietzsche's philosophy, which has led to many interpretations, some of which, such as the Nazi interpretation of it as a "will of power", were deliberate attempts of political instrumentation.
Much of the controversy surrounding the concept emerges from and surrounds The Will to Power, a book attributed to Nietzsche and published in 1901 (after Nietzsche’s death) by his sister Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche. There is disagreement about how much the book reflects Nietzsche’s philosophy and to what degree he wrote it. Likewise, to what degree the will to power as a concept is central or irrelevant to Nietzsche's philosophy is contested.
One popular interpretation of "will to power" is that it is a process of expansion and venting of creative energy that he believed was the basic driving force of nature. This interpretation would suggest that he believed it to be the fundamental causal power in the world, the driving force of all natural phenomena and the dynamic to which all other causal powers could be reduced. Indeed, the will to power must not be understood in a psychological or subjective way, but rather in a "cosmic way". That is, according to this theory, Nietzsche in part hoped the will to power could be a "theory of everything," providing the ultimate foundations for explanations of everything from whole societies, to individual organisms, down to mere lumps of matter.
Nietzsche perhaps developed the will to power concept furthest with regard to living organisms, and it is there that the concept is perhaps easiest to understand. There, the will to power is taken as an animal's most fundamental instinct or drive, even more fundamental than the act of self-preservation; the latter is but an epiphenomenon of the former. According to Nietzsche, the will to power is the basic means through which living things "interpret" or interact with the world and, in this sense, the world is "will to power, and nothing else besides."
[Anything which] is a living and not a dying body... will have to be an incarnate will to power, it will strive to grow, spread, seize, become predominant — not from any morality or immorality but because it is living and because life simply is will to power... 'Exploitation'... belongs to the essence of what lives, as a basic organic function; it is a consequence of the will to power, which is after all the will to life. — Beyond Good and Evil s.259, Walter Kaufmann translation.
Since the will to power is fundamental, any other drives are to be reduced to it; the "will to survive" (i.e. the survival instinct) that biologists (at least in Nietzsche's day) thought to be fundamental, for example, was in this light a manifestation of the will to power.
Physiologists should think before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength — life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results. — Beyond Good and Evil
Not just animalistic instincts but also higher level behaviors (even in humans) were to be reduced to the will to power. In fact, Nietzsche considered consciousness itself to be a form of instinct. This includes both such apparently harmful acts as physical violence, lying and domination, on one hand, and such apparently non-harmful acts as gift-giving, love and praise on the other. In Beyond Good and Evil, he claims that philosophers' "will to truth" (i.e., their apparent desire to dispassionately seek objective truth) is actually nothing more than a manifestation of their will to power; this will can be life-affirming or a manifestation of nihilism, but it is will to power all the same.
As indicated above, the will to power is meant to explain more than just the behavior of an individual person or animal. It is not psychological, nor intentional or subjective. As opposed to consciousness, it is not one but multiple.
It should be noted that a biological interpretation of Will to Power such as this is but one of many possible. Nietzsche scholarship is replete with interpretations, largely due to Nietzsche's elusive style. Others might suggest that the Will to Power is not really as central a concept in Nietzsche's thought. Nietzsche himself may have even agreed, when he suggests, in Ecce Homo, that his notion of eternal recurrence is his most central thought, and the central theme of his most famous work, Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
However, Heidegger, and also Deleuze, would argue that both concepts, the will to power and the thought of the eternal recurrence, were to be thought together. |
My interpretation is that the will to power is an instinct which all organisms, or at least the ones important enough, seem to possess. We derive our behaviors and our mentalities from the way we live out our own form of imposing order and power on others. Some of us are meek and submissive, and they are negative aspects of imposing power, while a small minority actively seeks to impose their power on others, which is the behavior of alpha males.[/equote]
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Zoon
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Posted: Mon 2006-03-06 22:16
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
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He definately has some interesting and thought provoking philosophies, though I'm not able to agree with many of them. Crime and Punishment is also one of my favorite books, though, even though Doestovski's philosophies were disturbing to me - Same with Don Quixote and Cervantes. I guess I'm saying that you don't have to agree with something to like it. I certainly find him interesting, and I think I may read more about him...
I couldn't possibly disagree with this, however.:
| Drzhen wrote: |
| From External Site |
| The concept of the overman appears to be limited to an intellectual or artist, rather than the political leaders that Nietzsche despised. |
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:04
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| Re: Nietzsche |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| Nietzsche: the name can conjure up thoughts of philosophical genius, or moral racism. I think he's a highly misunderstood sort of man. |
Indeed! I find it very disturbing - just like you stress yourself - that his teachings have been so severely distorted by political quasi-philosophers. How can one possibly become completely intellectually independent while submitting oneself to a rigid political system? How can someone use a fierce non-conformist in agitation for strict conformism? Totally absurd.
In a nutshell, I'm growing fucking weary of having to explain that I reject fascism every time I express my fascination for Nietzsche. Half-learned people is really a pain.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| The concept of nihilism in Nietzsche's various works has spawned more than one inspirational philosophe, and political movement. His concept of nihilism is a bit misunderstood, since if he were truly nihilistic, he wouldn't need to mention "ubermensch" as a form of collective hope for the continuation of human intellect and the race itself. I believe that his concept of nihilism meant the seeming absence of a god. Without such, Man loses his will to purpose. Nietzsche realized this, and philosophized of "ubermensch" and the "will to power". |
Agreed. As I interpret Nietzsche, nihilism is just a stepping-stone - old values must be destroyed and replaced with new values. I think this quote from my favourite passage in Thus Spake Zarathustra is the key:
| Quote: |
| Ready must thou be to burn thyself in thine own flame; how couldst thou become new if thou have not first become ashes! |
| Drzhen wrote: |
| The phrase "God is dead" is just as misunderstood as his position on nihilism. Some actually think that he thought god actually existed, and then died either of boredom or of lost hope for the human race. What Nietzsche meant was that we have to live our lives free from the collective boogeyman, i.e. god. Institutionalized worship is a means of breeding stupidity. |
Probably. Personally, I'd like to see Nietzsche as an agnostic who finds religion pointless, though.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| From my own reading of Nietzsche, I feel that the "ubermensch" is his conceptual idea of a highly individual human being, free from ideology, and free to shape his life into whatever form he wishes. |
Agreed.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| In effect, the ubermenschen would rule the untermensch, because from his perspective, power is for the responsible, and is the natural order of things. If we examine Satanic writings, we find that Anton LaVey was perhaps greatly inspired by one individual, our Nietzsche. Then again, since Nietzsche never did specify what an ubermensch is exactly, it's purely based in our own subjective perspectives what the definition means. |
I disagree. An individual who rules and executes power can't really be completely intellectually independent and thus not an übermensch. An übermensch must stand above hierarchy or become part of one. That's how I see it.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| In a sense, I agree with the concept of Master/slave mentality. The Roman Empire indeed was a conglomoration of "will-to-power" ideals and tempered Roman steel. Christianity in turn taught that submission and meekness were virtues. I can see why Nietzsche hated Christianity. But when he describes the Master mentality as being possessed only by the strong, and the slave mentality as being possessed only by the weak, I disagree. I know people who are naturally submissive, and realize this and act on it. They are not weak people. To categorize "slaves" as weak people is an inaccurate stereotype. And as for "Masters", not all are benevolent or strong. Some are sadistic monsters, and some are weak people with overactive egos. |
Agreed. I'm not sure if my memory is failing me now, but wasn't it Nietzsche who claimed that, "weakness is strength and strength is weakness"? To me, it makes perfect sense; every great man and woman has deviated from the norm, be it physically, mentally or socially - weaknesses from a conventional point of vies.
(I do realise that this phrase doesn't have a particularly good ring in this forum, though...)
| Drzhen wrote: |
| But Nietzsche was right about the mentality change from Roman paganism to Roman Catholicism. One philosophy of "might is right" was replaced by "turn the other cheek", in concept. Of course, no one ever fully adheres completely to any ideology, but in effect, the Roman Empire was dulled with what Nietzsche would call a slave mentality. The Roman people were no longer, in concept, as cruel or oppressive as they once were. Not to say that Darwinist brutality is right, but that in the perspective of continuity, the Romans didn't have the spirit to fight the coming barbarians. Slave mentalities tend to glorify weakness and submission, and submission is the last thing you need to do when facing a barbarian invasion. |
Maybe it's much simpler than that?
"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Nietzsche here shows a deep belief of his, that Christianity, in its slave mentality, allowed the virtues of the masses (weakness, stupidity, ignorance, etc) to impose itself on the rest of society. In effect, Nietzsche believed in stratification. On the bottom must be the masses, allowed to collectively rot themselves with their own stupidity. Higher up, people who can think and do, would be the ones running society. In a sense, it's meritocratic, or, based upon one's actions and worth. Satanism probably obtained "responsibility to the responsible" from Nietzsche's views upon social division. |
I'm not sure I agree. Sure, Nietzsche speaks about a new aristocracy, but I've always thought of it as an intellectual aristocracy. Of course, an intellectual aristocracy can still influence society...
| Drzhen wrote: |
| My interpretation is that the will to power is an instinct which all organisms, or at least the ones important enough, seem to possess. We derive our behaviors and our mentalities from the way we live out our own form of imposing order and power on others. Some of us are meek and submissive, and they are negative aspects of imposing power, while a small minority actively seeks to impose their power on others, which is the behavior of alpha males. |
I'm not sure I agree on this either. Couldn't will to power be interpreted symbolically, as a will to power over one's self - ultimately one's perception of reality?
Finally, I simply MUST quote my favourite passage in Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche's only work that really has captured me. No words have ever been truer to me. I'm sure many other members of this forum intuitively can understand and appreciate these words too. After all, they describe the eternal struggle of the true thoughtcriminal.
| Quote: |
Wouldst thou go into isolation, my brother? Wouldst thou seek the way unto thyself? Tarry yet a little and hearken unto me.
"He who seeketh may easily get lost himself. All isolation is wrong": so say the herd. And long didst thou belong to the herd.
The voice of the herd will still echo in thee. And when thou sayest, "I have no longer a conscience in common with you," then will it be a plaint and a pain.
Lo, that pain itself did the same conscience produce; and the last gleam of that conscience still gloweth on thine affliction.
But thou wouldst go the way of thine affliction, which is the way unto thyself? Then show me thine authority and thy strength to do so!
Art thou a new strength and a new authority? A first motion? A self- rolling wheel? Canst thou also compel stars to revolve around thee?
Alas! there is so much lusting for loftiness! There are so many convulsions of the ambitions! Show me that thou art not a lusting and ambitious one!
Alas! there are so many great thoughts that do nothing more than the bellows: they inflate, and make emptier than ever.
Free, dost thou call thyself? Thy ruling thought would I hear of, and not that thou hast escaped from a yoke.
Art thou one ENTITLED to escape from a yoke? Many a one hath cast away his final worth when he hath cast away his servitude.
Free from what? What doth that matter to Zarathustra! Clearly, however, shall thine eye show unto me: free FOR WHAT?
Canst thou give unto thyself thy bad and thy good, and set up thy will as a law over thee? Canst thou be judge for thyself, and avenger of thy law?
Terrible is aloneness with the judge and avenger of one's own law. Thus is a star projected into desert space, and into the icy breath of aloneness.
To-day sufferest thou still from the multitude, thou individual; to-day hast thou still thy courage unabated, and thy hopes.
But one day will the solitude weary thee; one day will thy pride yield, and thy courage quail. Thou wilt one day cry: "I am alone!"
One day wilt thou see no longer thy loftiness, and see too closely thy lowliness; thy sublimity itself will frighten thee as a phantom. Thou wilt one day cry: "All is false!"
There are feelings which seek to slay the lonesome one; if they do not succeed, then must they themselves die! But art thou capable of it--to be a murderer?
Hast thou ever known, my brother, the word "disdain"? And the anguish of thy justice in being just to those that disdain thee?
Thou forcest many to think differently about thee; that, charge they heavily to thine account. Thou camest nigh unto them, and yet wentest past: for that they never forgive thee.
Thou goest beyond them: but the higher thou risest, the smaller doth the eye of envy see thee. Most of all, however, is the flying one hated.
"How could ye be just unto me!"--must thou say--"I choose your injustice as my allotted portion."
Injustice and filth cast they at the lonesome one: but, my brother, if thou wouldst be a star, thou must shine for them none the less on that account!
And be on thy guard against the good and just! They would fain crucify those who devise their own virtue--they hate the lonesome ones.
Be on thy guard, also, against holy simplicity! All is unholy to it that is not simple; fain, likewise, would it play with the fire--of the fagot and stake.
And be on thy guard, also, against the assaults of thy love! Too readily doth the recluse reach his hand to any one who meeteth him.
To many a one mayest thou not give thy hand, but only thy paw; and I wish thy paw also to have claws.
But the worst enemy thou canst meet, wilt thou thyself always be; thou waylayest thyself in caverns and forests.
Thou lonesome one, thou goest the way to thyself! And past thyself and thy seven devils leadeth thy way!
A heretic wilt thou be to thyself, and a wizard and a sooth-sayer, and a fool, and a doubter, and a reprobate, and a villain.
Ready must thou be to burn thyself in thine own flame; how couldst thou become new if thou have not first become ashes!
Thou lonesome one, thou goest the way of the creating one: a God wilt thou create for thyself out of thy seven devils!
Thou lonesome one, thou goest the way of the loving one: thou lovest thyself, and on that account despisest thou thyself, as only the loving ones despise.
To create, desireth the loving one, because he despiseth! What knoweth he of love who hath not been obliged to despise just what he loved!
With thy love, go into thine isolation, my brother, and with thy creating; and late only will justice limp after thee.
With my tears, go into thine isolation, my brother. I love him who seeketh to create beyond himself, and thus succumbeth.--
Thus spake Zarathustra. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18675
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:19
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That passage does correctly capture the struggle of the mind, and I can't possibly disagree that there is truth to what he says, but his philosophies seem so... bleak. People like to listen to what they want to know. Who will they hear - a man who speaks of revival or a man who speaks of death? I'm afraid I have yet to break from that herd - so sweet is the sound of salvation. Dang it, now that passage has got me speaking poetry.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18677
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:22
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 You're a poet and you didn't even know it. Now I've got myself speaking in rhymes.
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18679
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:27
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| Acebrock wrote: |
| You're a poet and you didn't even know it. Now I've got myself speaking in rhymes. |
Rhymes is not all thats needed for poetry. Did you notice my use of alliteration, etc.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18682
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:29
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yeah, I just caught myself speaking in rhymes. I found it very strange considering i'm not really very good at making poetry in any form.
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18686
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:43
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
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| Acebrock wrote: |
| yeah, I just caught myself speaking in rhymes. I found it very strange considering i'm not really very good at making poetry in any form. |
But you write don't you? All good writing is at least partly poetic.
Prose is all the best words. Poetry is all the best words in the best order.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18688
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:47
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true. perhaps I just haven't grown an ego yet. 
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18690
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:49
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| That passage does correctly capture the struggle of the mind, and I can't possibly disagree that there is truth to what he says, but his philosophies seem so... bleak. |
To me, they are more fiery than any other philosophies I've encountered.
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| People like to listen to what they want to know. |
Eh? "Want to hear", possibly?
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Who will they hear - a man who speaks of revival or a man who speaks of death? |
But then again, there can be no revival without death.
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| I'm afraid I have yet to break from that herd - so sweet is the sound of salvation. |
Actually, it seems that you have been more successful in breaking from the heard than me.
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Dang it, now that passage has got me speaking poetry. |
Why did thou stop? |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18691
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:52
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
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| Acebrock wrote: |
| perhaps I just haven't grown an ego yet. |
Ego is a prerequisite for writing, as I see it. After all, you partly write because you think that your work will concern other people. |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18693
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 19:57
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Why do people see me better than I see myself sometimes?
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18694
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 20:01
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Oh...because I'm INTP
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18696
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 20:13
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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| IO wrote: |
| I wrote: |
| That passage does correctly capture the struggle of the mind, and I can't possibly disagree that there is truth to what he says, but his philosophies seem so... bleak. |
To me, they are more fiery than any other philosophies I've encountered. |
I'm afraid that's why I can't seem to develop a taste for them - part of me fears they are true. Most of me, actually.
| IO wrote: |
| I wrote: |
| People like to listen to what they want to know. |
Eh? "Want to hear", possibly? |
I agree that 'want to know' doesn't quite sound correct, but 'want to hear' is probably the most orthodox thing to say. It also sounded repetitive. Perhaps I should have said, "People like to listen to what they want to believe." Yeah, that sounds better.
| IO wrote: |
| I wrote: |
| Who will they hear - a man who speaks of revival or a man who speaks of death? |
But then again, there can be no revival without death. |
Truth people try to ignore, just as I do. There’s a saying - "Everybody wants to get to heaven, but no one wants to die."
| IO wrote: |
| I wrote: |
| I'm afraid I have yet to break from that herd - so sweet is the sound of salvation. |
Actually, it seems that you have been more successful in breaking from the heard than me. |
How so? I find myself clinging to religious principles I know to be false simply because I wish them to be true. The other day I prayed - I'm not entirely sure if I was praying to Jesus or Allah or Siva, but I knelt down and whispered for about 10 minutes.
| IO wrote: |
| I wrote: |
Dang it, now that passage has got me speaking poetry.
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Why did thou stop? |
I can only write poetry when I don't know that I'm writing poetry. If I sit down with the intent, all that comes out is some haikus that have an extra syllable cleverly slipped in because all the good combinations were written 600 years ago.
_________________
To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana
Last edited by Zoon on Tue 2006-03-07 21:50; edited 3 times in total |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18697
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 20:14
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| Quote: |
| After all, you partly write because you think that your work will concern other people |
oddly enough that reminded me of one of my favorite songs: the sound of silence. even more oddly i found that you can hear the entire song here It's not of the best qality and I know nothing about the rest of the site but it's a great way to listen to the song if you have'nt heard it before.
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Therapy Needed
Committee Leader
Post #18713
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Posted: Tue 2006-03-07 21:01
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Sanctuary |
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| Goddammit IO, now you have me wanting to go read Thus Spake Zarathustra. I have to put Hemingway down again (I'll never read anything by him now). |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #18765
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 02:43
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| Politics: Satanist |
Country: Titan |
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| Re: Nietzsche |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
Indeed! I find it very disturbing - just like you stress yourself - that his teachings have been so severely distorted by political quasi-philosophers. How can one possibly become completely intellectually independent while submitting oneself to a rigid political system? How can someone use a fierce non-conformist in agitation for strict conformism? Totally absurd.
In a nutshell, I'm growing fucking weary of having to explain that I reject fascism every time I express my fascination for Nietzsche. Half-learned people is really a pain. |
I just try to avoid proles whenever I can. Nietzsche tends to overload their underused thought processes.
I suggest the next time someone asks you if you're a fascist because you like some of Nietzsche, just say 'yes'.
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
Agreed. As I interpret Nietzsche, nihilism is just a stepping-stone - old values must be destroyed and replaced with new values. I think this quote from my favourite passage in Thus Spake Zarathustra is the key:
| Quote: |
| Ready must thou be to burn thyself in thine own flame; how couldst thou become new if thou have not first become ashes! |
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[Moderator comment: Lost response. See end of post. /IO]
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Probably. Personally, I'd like to see Nietzsche as an agnostic who finds religion pointless, though. |
He might have been, but since I haven't read any statements by him expressing a belief in a higher power, I assume he might be atheist. In any case, I think he would agree with you that religion is pointless, even if there is a god.
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I disagree. An individual who rules and executes power can't really be completely intellectually independent and thus not an übermensch. An übermensch must stand above hierarchy or become part of one. That's how I see it. |
Since Nietzsche thought that a true ubermensch was someone along the lines of an artist, or at least someone separate from political processes, I'd agree. What I meant was, in a modern context, an ubermensch could have been a person with Machiavellian political intruige and genius.
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
Agreed. I'm not sure if my memory is failing me now, but wasn't it Nietzsche who claimed that, "weakness is strength and strength is weakness"? To me, it makes perfect sense; every great man and woman has deviated from the norm, be it physically, mentally or socially - weaknesses from a conventional point of view.
(I do realise that this phrase doesn't have a particularly good ring in this forum, though...) |
I don't know, but that doesn't sound very Nietzschean. He viewed weakness as weakness, and detested it. I couldn't imagine him saying that weakness was power, unless he meant how in our Christian-based Western world, weak people are able to influence others.
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I'm not sure I agree. Sure, Nietzsche speaks about a new aristocracy, but I've always thought of it as an intellectual aristocracy. Of course, an intellectual aristocracy can still influence society... |
You might be right, but he was so vague that we can't be sure if he was limiting them to just intellectuals, or intellectuals who try to shape society.
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I'm not sure I agree on this either. Couldn't will to power be interpreted symbolically, as a will to power over one's self - ultimately one's perception of reality? |
He could have meant it in a personal context, but since he writes so heavily about the Master/slave mentality, about how society is either part of the 'herd' or the 'shepherd', it seems more reasonable to me that he meant it in a socially-applied context, which is how society functions. In schools, it's easy to find the alpha-males, and the others down the scale.
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
Finally, I simply MUST quote my favourite passage in Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche's only work that really has captured me. No words have ever been truer to me. I'm sure many other members of this forum intuitively can understand and appreciate these words too. After all, they describe the eternal struggle of the true thoughtcriminal.
| Quote: |
Wouldst thou go into isolation, my brother? Wouldst thou seek the way unto thyself? Tarry yet a little and hearken unto me.
"He who seeketh may easily get lost himself. All isolation is wrong": so say the herd. And long didst thou belong to the herd.
The voice of the herd will still echo in thee. And when thou sayest, "I have no longer a conscience in common with you," then will it be a plaint and a pain.
Lo, that pain itself did the same conscience produce; and the last gleam of that conscience still gloweth on thine affliction.
But thou wouldst go the way of thine affliction, which is the way unto thyself? Then show me thine authority and thy strength to do so!
Art thou a new strength and a new authority? A first motion? A self- rolling wheel? Canst thou also compel stars to revolve around thee?
Alas! there is so much lusting for loftiness! There are so many convulsions of the ambitions! Show me that thou art not a lusting and ambitious one!
Alas! there are so many great thoughts that do nothing more than the bellows: they inflate, and make emptier than ever.
Free, dost thou call thyself? Thy ruling thought would I hear of, and not that thou hast escaped from a yoke.
Art thou one ENTITLED to escape from a yoke? Many a one hath cast away his final worth when he hath cast away his servitude.
Free from what? What doth that matter to Zarathustra! Clearly, however, shall thine eye show unto me: free FOR WHAT?
Canst thou give unto thyself thy bad and thy good, and set up thy will as a law over thee? Canst thou be judge for thyself, and avenger of thy law?
Terrible is aloneness with the judge and avenger of one's own law. Thus is a star projected into desert space, and into the icy breath of aloneness.
To-day sufferest thou still from the multitude, thou individual; to-day hast thou still thy courage unabated, and thy hopes.
But one day will the solitude weary thee; one day will thy pride yield, and thy courage quail. Thou wilt one day cry: "I am alone!"
One day wilt thou see no longer thy loftiness, and see too closely thy lowliness; thy sublimity itself will frighten thee as a phantom. Thou wilt one day cry: "All is false!"
There are feelings which seek to slay the lonesome one; if they do not succeed, then must they themselves die! But art thou capable of it--to be a murderer?
Hast thou ever known, my brother, the word "disdain"? And the anguish of thy justice in being just to those that disdain thee?
Thou forcest many to think differently about thee; that, charge they heavily to thine account. Thou camest nigh unto them, and yet wentest past: for that they never forgive thee.
Thou goest beyond them: but the higher thou risest, the smaller doth the eye of envy see thee. Most of all, however, is the flying one hated.
"How could ye be just unto me!"--must thou say--"I choose your injustice as my allotted portion."
Injustice and filth cast they at the lonesome one: but, my brother, if thou wouldst be a star, thou must shine for them none the less on that account!
And be on thy guard against the good and just! They would fain crucify those who devise their own virtue--they hate the lonesome ones.
Be on thy guard, also, against holy simplicity! All is unholy to it that is not simple; fain, likewise, would it play with the fire--of the fagot and stake.
And be on thy guard, also, against the assaults of thy love! Too readily doth the recluse reach his hand to any one who meeteth him.
To many a one mayest thou not give thy hand, but only thy paw; and I wish thy paw also to have claws.
But the worst enemy thou canst meet, wilt thou thyself always be; thou waylayest thyself in caverns and forests.
Thou lonesome one, thou goest the way to thyself! And past thyself and thy seven devils leadeth thy way!
A heretic wilt thou be to thyself, and a wizard and a sooth-sayer, and a fool, and a doubter, and a reprobate, and a villain.
Ready must thou be to burn thyself in thine own flame; how couldst thou become new if thou have not first become ashes!
Thou lonesome one, thou goest the way of the creating one: a God wilt thou create for thyself out of thy seven devils!
Thou lonesome one, thou goest the way of the loving one: thou lovest thyself, and on that account despisest thou thyself, as only the loving ones despise.
To create, desireth the loving one, because he despiseth! What knoweth he of love who hath not been obliged to despise just what he loved!
With thy love, go into thine isolation, my brother, and with thy creating; and late only will justice limp after thee.
With my tears, go into thine isolation, my brother. I love him who seeketh to create beyond himself, and thus succumbeth.--
Thus spake Zarathustra. |
|
This makes me want to read Thus Spake Zarathustra again.
On another issue, IO, would you like to schedule a chess game between us? I'm afraid I don't know of any online chess sites, so I'm hoping you would know.
[PLEASE NOTICE! Due to the fact that yours truly is a clumsy clot, this post was almost vaporised by mistake. The post has been manually reconstructed, save for one of Drzhen's response; I fail to recall the exact wording.
If this mistake is repeated, may BB give me a dishonorable discharge from the moderator ranks and may you all refer to me as "Screw-up Officer". My apologies for any inconvenience. /IO]
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18766
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 02:46
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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zone.msn.com you can play chess as a guest or sign up and there are thousands of other games
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #18768
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Therapy Needed
Committee Leader
Post #18793
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 05:23
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Sanctuary |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| I don't know, but that doesn't sound very Nietzschean. He viewed weakness as weakness, and detested it. I couldn't imagine him saying that weakness was power, unless he meant how in our Christian-based Western world, weak people are able to influence others. |
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I just read that part. I think what he was getting at is that slaves have power over their masters because without them, the masters would have no power. I could be completely off base though, since TSZ is very interpretable. |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #18808
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 07:31
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| Politics: Satanist |
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| therapyneeded wrote: |
| Drzhen wrote: |
| I don't know, but that doesn't sound very Nietzschean. He viewed weakness as weakness, and detested it. I couldn't imagine him saying that weakness was power, unless he meant how in our Christian-based Western world, weak people are able to influence others. |
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I just read that part. I think what he was getting at is that slaves have power over their masters because without them, the masters would have no power. I could be completely off base though, since TSZ is very interpretable. |
Fortunately, I do have the book, but I'm too tired to read through it to find his thoughts on this. I think you're right about slaves having subjective power, but the real point is that the slaves cannot act upon their power. Their masters have the ability to act upon their own power, by beatings, by rapings, by whippings, by mutilation, starvation, torture, or forced labor. So, yes, in a sense the slaves do have subjective power, but they have no ability to act upon it, individually, in concept, otherwise they would overpower their masters and become the masters themselves.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Therapy Needed
Committee Leader
Post #18830
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 16:40
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Sanctuary |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Yeah, to me it seems more like a dualistic, almost Taoistic approach in saying that slaves have power over their masters. But I think it is still a good point; the masters' power is contingent on others, thus it in no way resembles the overman's power. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18843
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 17:52
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| I'm afraid that's why I can't seem to develop a taste for them - part of me fears they are true. Most of me, actually. |
I'd say you are postponing pain.
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Truth people try to ignore, just as I do. There’s a saying - "Everybody wants to get to heaven, but no one wants to die." |
Some people would prefer to live in hell before not existing at all.
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| IO wrote: |
| Actually, it seems that you have been more successful in breaking from the heard than me. |
How so? I find myself clinging to religious principles I know to be false simply because I wish them to be true. The other day I prayed - I'm not entirely sure if I was praying to Jesus or Allah or Siva, but I knelt down and whispered for about 10 minutes. |
True, but you don't fear solitude. You only bow to God, no one else. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18844
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 17:53
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| therapyneeded wrote: |
| Goddammit IO, now you have me wanting to go read Thus Spake Zarathustra. |
Sorry...
| therapyneeded wrote: |
| I have to put Hemingway down again (I'll never read anything by him now). |
I really ought to read some works of Hemingway too, being an English teacher and all... |
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Therapy Needed
Committee Leader
Post #18846
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 556
Total Words: 89,413
Average words per post: 160.81
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 18:04
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Sanctuary |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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No need for any of that now; I read for hours yesterday, and I must say, that is the most fun I've had reading a book in a while, and is hands down the most entertaining work of philosophy I've had the pleasure of reading.
| IO wrote: |
| I really ought to read some works of Hemingway too, being an English teacher and all... |
His writing style is very appealing to me; very stark and terse. I just haven't been able to really get into one of his works yet (I'm always getting sidetracked). |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18847
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
Total Words: 368,198
Average words per post: 98.92
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 18:06
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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| Re: Nietzsche |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| I just try to avoid proles whenever I can. Nietzsche tends to overload their underused thought processes. |
Easier said than done...
| Drzhen wrote: |
| I suggest the next time someone asks you if you're a fascist because you like some of Nietzsche, just say 'yes'. |
That's a dangerous provocation if one is a teacher. People accept many kinds of teachers, but not fascist teachers.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Probably. Personally, I'd like to see Nietzsche as an agnostic who finds religion pointless, though. |
He might have been, but since I haven't read any statements by him expressing a belief in a higher power, I assume he might be atheist. In any case, I think he would agree with you that religion is pointless, even if there is a god. |
Agreed. Interestingly put.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Since Nietzsche thought that a true ubermensch was someone along the lines of an artist, or at least someone separate from political processes, I'd agree. What I meant was, in a modern context, an ubermensch could have been a person with Machiavellian political intruige and genius. |
Possibly.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
Agreed. I'm not sure if my memory is failing me now, but wasn't it Nietzsche who claimed that, "weakness is strength and strength is weakness"? To me, it makes perfect sense; every great man and woman has deviated from the norm, be it physically, mentally or socially - weaknesses from a conventional point of vies.
(I do realise that this phrase doesn't have a particularly good ring in this forum, though...) |
I don't know, but that doesn't sound very Nietzschean. He viewed weakness as weakness, and detested it. I couldn't imagine him saying that weakness was power, unless he meant how in our Christian-based Western world, weak people are able to influence others. |
You are probably right. Obviously, I can't elaborate on this until I've managed to confirm the quote and examine the context.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I'm not sure I agree. Sure, Nietzsche speaks about a new aristocracy, but I've always thought of it as an intellectual aristocracy. Of course, an intellectual aristocracy can still influence society... |
You might be right, but he was so vague that we can't be sure if he was limiting them to just intellectuals, or intellectuals who try to shape society. |
That's part of Nietzsche's charm, isn't it? To simply use reasoning is not enough; one can't understand him without using intuition.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I'm not sure I agree on this either. Couldn't will to power be interpreted symbolically, as a will to power over one's self - ultimately one's perception of reality? |
He could have meant it in a personal context, but since he writes so heavily about the Master/slave mentality, about how society is either part of the 'herd' or the 'shepherd', it seems more reasonable to me that he meant it in a socially-applied context, which is how society functions. |
Maybe. Yet, he focuses on the mentality, and when he speaks about the distinction between "herd" and "shepherd", I spontaneously think of an intellectual distinction; compare with Christian phraseology.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| In schools, it's easy to find the alpha-males, and the others down the scale. |
Being a teacher myself, I find it to be more complex than that. I should point out that our schools aren't socially segregated the way American schools are. For one thing, there's seldom jock rule in Swedish schools... |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18848
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
Total Words: 368,198
Average words per post: 98.92
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 18:12
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| therapyneeded wrote: |
No need for any of that now; I read for hours yesterday, and I must say, that is the most fun I've had reading a book in a while, and is hands down the most entertaining work of philosophy I've had the pleasure of reading. |
Well, I was merely joking. The first time I read Zarathustra, it was an existential awakening to me. If my post made you read it, I will hardly apologise...
| therapyneeded wrote: |
| IO wrote: |
| I really ought to read some works of Hemingway too, being an English teacher and all... |
His writing style is very appealing to me; very stark and terse. |
That's my impression too. Would anyone like to recommend any of his works in particular? |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18851
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2659
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Average words per post: 115.31
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 18:23
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| IO wrote: |
| I'd say you are postponing pain. |
I'd agree, but what else is a man to do? We are born with the instinct to postpone pain, since we can't possibly avoid it. Drugs, alcohol, television, pornography all help us ignore the pain, but it'll catch up to us someday.
| IO wrote: |
| Some people would prefer to live in hell before not existing at all. |
That's a very interesting statement, and I'm sure its true for some people. I'm not even sure what I would chose - hell, and suffer for eternity, or nonexistence, and never know anything at all. I assume I would chose nonexistence, but if hell was the only way to preserve myself...
| IO wrote: |
| True, but you don't fear solitude. You only bow to God, no one else. |
But I do fear solitude. True, I relish it sometimes, whenever I wish to think and not jabber, but if I had to live in total isolation from other sentient life, I hardly think I would enjoy it. So many things to think, and no one to say them to, I think I would go insane.
_________________
To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18854
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Average words per post: 98.92
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 18:50
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| On another issue, IO, would you like to schedule a chess game between us? I'm afraid I don't know of any online chess sites, so I'm hoping you would know. |
Well, first we need to solve the time zone problem. Judging from your profile, you live in the Pacific time zone, which basically means that I'm nine hours ahead of you. When this is written, the time is 19:30 where I live, and 10:30 where you live. My working hours, i.e. including commuting, are roughly 22:00-08:00, your time; if I'm not mistaken, you are mostly on-line during these hours. Optimal playing hours for me would be 09:00-12:00, your time; I assume you might have lectures during these hours. I catch some hours of sleep 12:00-21:00, your time; how many hours and exactly when depend on my mood; not seldom I just sleep 3-4 hours. That's the situation.
It would really help if this forum had some simple chess software, so that we could catch each other when we are on-line... (Are you reading this, BB? Would that be possible? I realise I'm not exactly in the position to ask for anything, now that my screw-up has rendered you extra work...) |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18856
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 18:55
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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And what screw-up would that be?
_________________
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18857
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 18:58
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| IO wrote: |
| I'd say you are postponing pain. |
I'd agree, but what else is a man to do? We are born with the instinct to postpone pain, since we can't possibly avoid it. Drugs, alcohol, television, pornography all help us ignore the pain, but it'll catch up to us someday. |
You only have to go through purgatory once.
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| IO wrote: |
| Some people would prefer to live in hell before not existing at all. |
That's a very interesting statement, and I'm sure its true for some people. I'm not even sure what I would chose - hell, and suffer for eternity, or nonexistence, and never know anything at all. I assume I would chose nonexistence, but if hell was the only way to preserve myself... |
For the record, it's not my statement. I can't find the source, though.
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| IO wrote: |
| True, but you don't fear solitude. You only bow to God, no one else. |
But I do fear solitude. True, I relish it sometimes, whenever I wish to think and not jabber, but if I had to live in total isolation from other sentient life, I hardly think I would enjoy it. So many things to think, and no one to say them to, I think I would go insane. |
So, we are the only ones standing between you and the abyss, then?  But seriously, I'm not sure either that I could endure total isolation. For a limited time, yes, but certainly not for the rest of my life. I consider it a weakness, but a most human one. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18858
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2659
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 19:10
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Quote: |
| So, we are the only ones standing between you and the abyss, then? |
Well, I also write letters to some family members in Russia, which keeps me from getting rusty, and I also use email quite a bit. But this is really the first BBS I have ever taken a likening to - its big enough not to be stagnant but small enough to harbor individual characters.
_________________
To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18860
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 19:37
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Acebrock wrote: |
| And what screw-up would that be? |
That would be that I almost vaporised Drzhen's post. My apologies, Drzhen. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18861
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 19:41
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| But this is really the first BBS I have ever taken a likening to - its big enough not to be stagnant but small enough to harbor individual characters. |
Indeed, this BBS is one of a kind. At least, I really hope so, because I've visited the site 482 times, been logged on 2 weeks, 4 days and 8 hours, and submitted 1,535 posts. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18864
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 19:48
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Better edit that, looks like you've done one more since.
_________________
To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18865
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 19:53
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Can we call you Semi-screw-up Officer IO?
_________________
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18868
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
Total Words: 368,198
Average words per post: 98.92
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 19:57
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Better edit that, looks like you've done one more since. |
I get the feeling that this might be the beginning of an endless loop... |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18870
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 20:01
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Acebrock wrote: |
| Can we call you Semi-screw-up Officer IO? |
Yes, you may. Or why not Dimfock Officer? It almost rhymes. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18871
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2659
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Posted: Wed 2006-03-08 20:03
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Better edit that, looks like you've done one more since. |
I get the feeling that this might be the beginning of an endless loop... |
Dang it, I was hoping to pull it off three or four more time before you'd ignore it.
_________________
To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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