Post #58034
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Posted: Sun 2008-12-07 07:33
Unpaid overtime at the Ministry of Truth
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Here's somethine that's confusing me. When the war switches from Eurasia to Eastasia, everyone at the Ministry of Truth spends a gruelling week correcting the past to ensure "no reference to the war with Eurasia, or the alliance with Eastasia, should remain in existence anywhere."
However, just before the above quotation, Orwell also writes "a large part of the political literature of five years was now obsolete".
Why only five years? Surely, the whole of history needs re-writing every time the war switches. _________________ Plusgood duckspeak.
Post #58052
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Posted: Tue 2008-12-09 06:53
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view doubleplusungood memoryhole crimethink
Wonderful News wrote:
Here's somethine that's confusing me. When the war switches from Eurasia to Eastasia, everyone at the Ministry of Truth spends a gruelling week correcting the past to ensure "no reference to the war with Eurasia, or the alliance with Eastasia, should remain in existence anywhere."
However, just before the above quotation, Orwell also writes "a large part of the political literature of five years was now obsolete".
Why only five years? Surely, the whole of history needs re-writing every time the war switches.
You just answered your own question. History is rewritten every time the alliances change in the war. Pre-war history is constantly being destroyed and rewritten systematically by Minitrue while the current history of the war changes every time the alliances shift. _________________
Post #58053
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Posted: Tue 2008-12-09 07:20
Re: Unpaid overtime at the Ministry of Truth
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Mephistopheles wrote:
You just answered your own question. History is rewritten every time the alliances change in the war. Pre-war history is constantly being destroyed and rewritten systematically by Minitrue while the current history of the war changes every time the alliances shift.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. That Oceania was not at war with anyone before 1979? _________________ Plusgood duckspeak.
Post #58054
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Posted: Tue 2008-12-09 10:04
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view doubleplusungood memoryhole crimethink
Wonderful News wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:
You just answered your own question. History is rewritten every time the alliances change in the war. Pre-war history is constantly being destroyed and rewritten systematically by Minitrue while the current history of the war changes every time the alliances shift.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. That Oceania was not at war with anyone before 1979?
No, that's not what I said at all. You're guessing the war switches sides every 5 years based on one statement (whose validity should be questioned due to the fact Winston isn't even sure the current date at the beginning of the novel is indeed 1984 at all), for one. It could be longer or shorter; a predictable government of Oceania would ensure its own downfall.
You asked "Why only five years? Surely, the whole of history needs re-writing every time the war switches," which directly indicates, with your previous statement of Winston talking about a 5-year period of history needing alteration, and with your statement in the quotes here, that you were referring to the switches in alliances. Now, I just said, you answered your own question, through your original post. Since it is a fact of the book the switches in alliances have happened more than once, the answer to your question which shows that you think the changes in history only apply to the previous alliance with the former ally (now the enemy) of the past 5 years or so, actually happen to all periods of history.
Throughout the book, places, names, and history itself has been systematically altered. Places of old British culture have been turned into war museums, the very names of places have been changed, provinces and nations have been renamed, and the Party claims most inventions for itself (which will gain in number as time goes on).
If you need assistance with reading comprehension, I'll be glad to help in the future. _________________
Post #58055
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Posted: Tue 2008-12-09 14:40
Re: Unpaid overtime at the Ministry of Truth
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Mephistopheles wrote:
You're guessing the war switches sides every 5 years based on one statement
I do not consider, or guess, that the war switches sides every five years. I cannot see what I said to make you think that (or what relevance it would have to the issue even if I had).
Quote:
Since it is a fact of the book the switches in alliances have happened more than once, the answer to your question which shows that you think the changes in history only apply to the previous alliance with the former ally (now the enemy) of the past 5 years or so, actually happen to all periods of history.
The changes in history undertaken during the intense six day period I am referring to do only apply to the change in alliance and to the past five years (check the text). Which brings us back to my original question.
Do feel free to omit sarcastic comments about "reading comprehension" should you respond further. _________________ Plusgood duckspeak.
Post #58056
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Posted: Tue 2008-12-09 16:00
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Wonderful News wrote:
Here's somethine that's confusing me. When the war switches from Eurasia to Eastasia, everyone at the Ministry of Truth spends a gruelling week correcting the past to ensure "no reference to the war with Eurasia, or the alliance with Eastasia, should remain in existence anywhere."
However, just before the above quotation, Orwell also writes "a large part of the political literature of five years was now obsolete".
Why only five years? Surely, the whole of history needs re-writing every time the war switches.
I think his statement definitely suggests that the war with Eurasia lasted from 1979 to 1984.
Presumably, all older documents got memoryholed in 1979. When Oceania's war with Eurasia started, all political discourse started on the predication that the war was eternal. Anything relating events prior to a war with Eurasia was erased.
...So in 1984, with a different war in the works, "rewriting the whole of human history" is just a matter of spending a grueling week at Minitrue altering five years worth of amassed political material against Eurasia. I hope that can help to explain the situation.
Post #58057
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Posted: Tue 2008-12-09 19:14
Politics: Oligarchical Collectivist
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Mephistopheles wrote:
Wonderful News wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:
You just answered your own question. History is rewritten every time the alliances change in the war. Pre-war history is constantly being destroyed and rewritten systematically by Minitrue while the current history of the war changes every time the alliances shift.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. That Oceania was not at war with anyone before 1979?
No, that's not what I said at all. You're guessing the war switches sides every 5 years based on one statement (whose validity should be questioned due to the fact Winston isn't even sure the current date at the beginning of the novel is indeed 1984 at all), for one. It could be longer or shorter; a predictable government of Oceania would ensure its own downfall.
You asked "Why only five years? Surely, the whole of history needs re-writing every time the war switches," which directly indicates, with your previous statement of Winston talking about a 5-year period of history needing alteration, and with your statement in the quotes here, that you were referring to the switches in alliances. Now, I just said, you answered your own question, through your original post. Since it is a fact of the book the switches in alliances have happened more than once, the answer to your question which shows that you think the changes in history only apply to the previous alliance with the former ally (now the enemy) of the past 5 years or so, actually happen to all periods of history.
Throughout the book, places, names, and history itself has been systematically altered. Places of old British culture have been turned into war museums, the very names of places have been changed, provinces and nations have been renamed, and the Party claims most inventions for itself (which will gain in number as time goes on).
If you need assistance with reading comprehension, I'll be glad to help in the future.
Actually it is political allegory in relation to 1984, 'Mr News' is referring to the change of government in the US; consider the switch from Jimmy Carter ending in 1979-1980 and the start of the Reagan Administration's first term 1980-1984.
The net result the US is in worse shape than at the start with the Treasury depleted, the Army clapped out, the Financial System on life support and the US Car Industry borderlining collapse, it does wonders for destroying the Middle Classes and creates high economic and political polarization, now split hairs at your pleasure.... wind forward 2001-2004 and then 2004-2008 notice the parallel? Fits nicely though with the Republicrat rhetoric on the two-party system, despite the Republican 'Lite' ingredients.
In the case of Ingsoc this is the overarching 'party', in political circles it is called the Washington Consensus, which logically to those living in the South really gets off side and hence its referral in literary discourse as the 'Oligarchy'.
_________________
What is a Democratic Socialist?
It is a Communist who is cowardly
enough to call himself what he's not, for fear of backlash on the Semantics. It is about the "Speed" of the "Revolution".
Like Hitler said "get them persuaded and us elected"
Caveat Emptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Socialism DO NOT USE BIG BROTHER'S LIBERTARIAN POLICIES AND BELIEFS AGAINST HIS HIMSELF AND HIS FORUM
Post #58063
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Posted: Tue 2008-12-09 23:10
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Tristan wrote:
Presumably, all older documents got memoryholed in 1979.
When Oceania's war with Eurasia started, all political discourse started on the predication that the war was eternal. Anything relating events prior to a war with Eurasia was erased.
...So in 1984, with a different war in the works, "rewriting the whole of human history" is just a matter of spending a grueling week at Minitrue altering five years worth of amassed political material against Eurasia. I hope that can help to explain the situation.
I think your suggestion is the Party exists in a kind of five to ten year (say) bubble. In a few years, when the war switches back, they will revise all documents going back to 1984, and memoryhole earlier stuff.
That works, I guess, and seems at least more plausible than Orwell simply not thinking it through when he wrote "the literature of five years was now obselete". It's also consistent with Winston not being entirely certain that it is 1984. _________________ Plusgood duckspeak.
Post #58431
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Posted: Sun 2009-01-04 13:45
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You're quite correct that a change in alliances should affect almost the entirety of Oceania's history records. After all Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. If it turns out that 7 years ago Oceania was not at war with Eastasia then that would be just as factually inaccurate as not being at war with Eastasia 4 years ago as far as the party line is concerned.
It could be simply a slip up on Orwells part. A not so plausible in character explanation is that the events prior to 5 years ago already had a template ready which Oceania can switch back to when the need arises. This though would imply that there is a department out there that keeps around stuff which is not supposed to exist, which is at odds with the premisse of the memoryhole. A more plausible explanation is that the history records from the last 5 years are merely the most urgent to be changed and that previous reports can be altered at a normal pace for minitrue operations. Five years might be considered the limit of the collective memory of Oceania's citizenry, thus becomnig the stuff that needs to be altered asap.
Post #58582
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Posted: Thu 2009-01-22 05:53
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Kenos wrote:
A not so plausible in character explanation is that the events prior to 5 years ago already had a template ready which Oceania can switch back to when the need arises. This though would imply that there is a department out there that keeps around stuff which is not supposed to exist, which is at odds with the premisse of the memoryhole.
That was my take on it -- that the party kept all the old records up in the attic, along with the Christmas decorations and an unused exercise machine. Items thrown down the memory hole are "forgotten", but not destroyed. O'Brien demonstrated this when he produced an old photo of Jones, Aaronson, and Rutherford in New York -- a photo which proved that their confessions were lies, and which Winston had dropped down the Memory Hole ten years prior.
Since the party kept all of these old records around, that would greatly reduced the amount of work Minitrue would he to perform when alliances shifted. _________________ "The Aim of an Argument ... should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." - Seneca the Younger
"It is often argued that religion is valuable because it makes men good, but even if this were true it would not be a proof that religion is true. That would be an extension of pragmatism beyond endurance. Santa Claus makes children good in precisely the same way, and yet no one would argue seriously that the fact proves his existence. The defense of religion is full of such logical imbecilities." - H. L. Mencken
Post #58802
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Posted: Sat 2009-03-28 21:02
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Way I see it why did they need to change the history at all? The proles are detailed as an unthinking mass, caring only about whether they had enough during the various random shortages. They seemed unlikely to look through any sort of archive (which I doubt would exist for the general public) and in any case they seem to just instantly take it to mind using principles of Doublethink to burn it permanently onto their subconscious.
And the changing of wars also seems frivolous on the part of the Upper Party. Why possibly increase the questioning of the Outer Party by changing the war and making them think that everything which has happened in the past 5 years was a complete fake? If anybody can explain this to me then it would help my understanding of the novel.
I recently wrote an essay on 1984 and was unhappy to learn that I only got 18/30. Because of this I feel like I did not understand the novel perfectly and I could use some insight into where these flaws could be.
Post #58804
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Posted: Sat 2009-03-28 21:38
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view doubleplusungood memoryhole crimethink
slymonkeyinc20 wrote:
Way I see it why did they need to change the history at all? The proles are detailed as an unthinking mass, caring only about whether they had enough during the various random shortages. They seemed unlikely to look through any sort of archive (which I doubt would exist for the general public) and in any case they seem to just instantly take it to mind using principles of Doublethink to burn it permanently onto their subconscious.
And the changing of wars also seems frivolous on the part of the Upper Party. Why possibly increase the questioning of the Outer Party by changing the war and making them think that everything which has happened in the past 5 years was a complete fake? If anybody can explain this to me then it would help my understanding of the novel.
I recently wrote an essay on 1984 and was unhappy to learn that I only got 18/30. Because of this I feel like I did not understand the novel perfectly and I could use some insight into where these flaws could be.
It's not frivolous at all. The changing alliances, and the constant rewriting of history kept all of Oceania in a kind of controlled insanity. If nothing changed, if there was no need to purge memories and believe the new Party line that the war was really in Eurasia and not Eastasia, then the Party couldn't constantly, to be blunt, screw with your mind. One of the best ways to brainwash someone is to confuse them and make them question their own memories and beliefs. By switching the war details around, by constantly "updating" history, the Party has more opportunities to also get deeper into people's minds, and make them depend on the Party even more as they, on some level, question themselves, and have to rely on something monolithic as the Party.
Additionally, forcing everyone to rewrite history, and update their own memories pushes thoughtcriminals out into the open. It's easier in those cases to identify people dissatisfied with the situation of life, and to see who might question the Party.
In short, it forces thoughtcriminals out into the open for the Party to then toy with, and it keeps everyone in Oceania constantly in a state of controlled insanity, unsure of what is real and what is true. _________________
Post #58806
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Posted: Sat 2009-03-28 21:47
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Makes sense, I probably just don't get that cause when I'm arguing I try using facts as far as possible then maybe using said facts to prove it. Guess I don't have the type of brain needed to run a dictatorship then. Have to take that off my list of possible careers.
Anyway what was the original topic? Oh yes about updating history to bring about mass confusion and controlled insanity leading to a dependance on the government. Yeah so makes sense.
Post #58807
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Posted: Sat 2009-03-28 21:55
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view doubleplusungood memoryhole crimethink
slymonkeyinc20 wrote:
Makes sense, I probably just don't get that cause when I'm arguing I try using facts as far as possible then maybe using said facts to prove it.
When you're dealing with concepts in 1984 you simply need to compare it to your knowledge of totalitarian societies and dictatorships, and how they ran things, and you'll get it.
slymonkeyinc20 wrote:
Guess I don't have the type of brain needed to run a dictatorship then. Have to take that off my list of possible careers.
Is that a compliment? I think I would look smashing in black jackboots and a riding crop, and about a few million fanatic soldiers awaiting my every order.
slymonkeyinc20 wrote:
Anyway what was the original topic? Oh yes about updating history to bring about mass confusion and controlled insanity leading to a dependance on the government. Yeah so makes sense.
Perhaps it's more about pushing thoughtcriminals into the open. The thoughtpolice would be able to, when they spy on people, notice individuals who appear dissatisfied after the news of who Oceania is truly at war with, or with the changing of facts, and be able to determine who is "ungoodthinking".
Consider in the beginning 50 pages or so of 1984, where Winston is in the canteen room eating lunch, and he starts looking around, and thinking to himself of if the world really needs to be so dingy, barren, listless. The thoughtpolice wouldn't find it hard to notice someone looking around and thinking about his situation and quality of life. _________________
Post #58876
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Posted: Sun 2009-04-05 07:02
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slymonkeyinc20 wrote:
And the changing of wars also seems frivolous on the part of the Upper Party.
Maybe the war is real and the changing of allegiance really happens. This possibility has been discussed before on the forums (view thread). _________________ Plusgood duckspeak.
Post #58877
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Posted: Sun 2009-04-05 07:10
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Mephistopheles wrote:
slymonkeyinc20 wrote:
Makes sense, I probably just don't get that cause when I'm arguing I try using facts as far as possible then maybe using said facts to prove it.
When you're dealing with concepts in 1984 you simply need to compare it to your knowledge of totalitarian societies and dictatorships, and how they ran things, and you'll get it.
Something that helps me get a handle on 1984 is reading Orwell's essays, which are short and all available online. For insights about the nature of war in 1984 try You and the Atom Bomb. _________________ Plusgood duckspeak.
Post #59029
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Posted: Fri 2009-05-29 00:19
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Could revisionist history be considered Orwellian in a sense? The history course which I did recently is vastly different from even a decade ago. They now have a system by which the blame is equally shared. Kaiser Wilhelms expansionist policies, Britains will to have a navy bigger than 2nd and 3rd biggest navies, Austria vulcanized the Balkans and this included Russia. France wanted revenge for Alsace-Lorrain being taken by Germany.
In general, every country of the Entente Cordial of the Triple Alliance is responsible for the war. But I disagree and blame the Kaiser. At the time the British Empire may have controlled 2/3 of the world but there was no need for him to decide to expand into settled territories. It was his initial disputation which caused the problems. His actions are directly responsible for World War Two also as Germany went into a state of economic declie due to reparations.
This all adds together for the Kaiser's greed (said so since Germany was doing fine and didn't need to fight for Europe) being the sole reason for both World Wars. In any case, the governments collaborated to make the course more neutral so that nobody could get blamed. The governments had the misconstrued notion that people would blame countries rather than people.
Slight paralell of 1984 to reality? _________________ Nothing's ever different
'Cause all government's the same
They can call it freedom
But slavery's the game
There's nothing that you offer
But the dream of last years hero
The truth of revolution brother
Is year zero
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