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| Should autism be cured? |
| Yes |
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| No |
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12% |
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| No, but treatment should be available for those who have trouble functioning in society |
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45% |
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| Voted : 24 |
| Total Votes : 24 |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37546
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Posted: Tue 2007-02-20 08:19
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| JOHNNYBEGOOD wrote: |
| Acebrock wrote: |
| How I loathe the wording. It's amking autism sound like a bad thing, once again. Bu the conclusions are interesting to say the least |
For many people it is a bad thing. Just ask the kid who wears a foam helmet because he gets stuck in a circular habit of hitting his head against the wall. |
I'm pretty sure that's the minority. At least I hope it is. Statistics on these things are so hard to find.
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37569
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Posted: Tue 2007-02-20 14:39
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| And now they've found a genetic link to autism |
So the question is now they've isolated a genetic causer, should it be removed in genetic screenings where possible?
Keep in mind that, if I'm reading the research correctly, it's probably the same genes that cause both LFA and HFA, and without the genetic causes there's a reasonable chance the environmental causes wouldn't result in autism(as we know it).
Is preventing autism such a horrific crime that it should be avoided at the cost of the LFAs such as those JOHNNY describes?
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37580
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Posted: Tue 2007-02-20 17:49
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*sigh* Now I'm forced to think laterally. And I just woke up. Perhaps there is a genetic difference between LFAs and HFAs to explain hw the two develop so differently when it comes to mentailty and IQ and such. I dunno, the article was fairly vague.
Really curing autism seems to be a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario to me. If you cure atism the HFAs are the ones that suffer, by utimately losing something extremely beneficial to them: an above average IQ. However if you don't cure autism then it's the LFAs that suffer. There are two possibly beneficial scenarios:
1.You make LFAs "less" autistic, Perhaps turning them into HFAs, how this would be done I dunno.
2. You cure the LFAs only, and let the HFAs develop as they were born. The problem being how to tell the differerence between LFAs and HFAs prenatally.
I'm more fond of option 1 personally.
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37585
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Posted: Tue 2007-02-20 22:08
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| AceBrock wrote: |
*sigh* Now I'm forced to think laterally. And I just woke up. Perhaps there is a genetic difference between LFAs and HFAs to explain hw the two develop so differently when it comes to mentailty and IQ and such. I dunno, the article was fairly vague.
Really curing autism seems to be a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario to me. If you cure atism the HFAs are the ones that suffer, by utimately losing something extremely beneficial to them: an above average IQ. However if you don't cure autism then it's the LFAs that suffer. There are two possibly beneficial scenarios:
1.You make LFAs "less" autistic, Perhaps turning them into HFAs, how this would be done I dunno.
2. You cure the LFAs only, and let the HFAs develop as they were born. The problem being how to tell the differerence between LFAs and HFAs prenatally.
I'm more fond of option 1 personally. |
With current technology any future screening technology is unlikely to use some kind of vector to edit the autistic genome; more likely is simply a system of selection, whereby zygotes/gametes likely to be autistic simply aren't chosen to progress to maturity.
Whilst I don't really agree with the way you measure suffering in these matters; the baby would lose nothing, autistic children would simply cease to be born. If you consider it generally to be a negative thing to be born neurotypical, perhaps we should select for genes leading to HFA? As I see it either being born neurotypical or being born HFA entails relative suffering, and once we have decided which, the less preferable should be considered something worthy of curing.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37592
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 01:51
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I don't think we'll ever be able to convice the other that we're right. We're both far too stubborn. I realy see very little negativity in being autistic in any form. Making an LFA high functioning would help ease the burden on society caused by them not being able to fully contribute, as well as the money spent on training, caretakers, etc.
On a side note, is suffering really measureable? I don't think so, but that's just me.
Another side note, I don't consider being neurotypical is really suffering, just as I don't consider being autistic suffering. I say live and let live. Let the person decide what is best for them, instead of forcing decisions on them, as is constantly being suggested. If they're reasonably able to function in, and contribute to society, then what need is there to make them normal? Something RAK said on these lines works well here:
| RAK wrote: |
It's more of an opinion than anything else, to say that people who do not have autistic conditions are in the better position, but I'd tend to agree with that sentiment: I'd rather try to transcend my difficulties and be regarded for my superior attributes than pitied for my "inferior" attributes.
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Also care to list the problems with being being autistic on any level? If the problems aren't all that major, then there is little reason to actually dump autism entirely down the tube.
Edit: One last point. Is it really suffering if they have always known it, and have adapted to it in such a way as to be able to function to their maximum potential. This ties in to my second point.
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37601
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 05:49
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| I don't think we'll ever be able to convice the other that we're right. We're both far too stubborn. I realy see very little negativity in being autistic in any form. Making an LFA high functioning would help ease the burden on society caused by them not being able to fully contribute, as well as the money spent on training, caretakers, etc. |
I wasn't really trying to reignite our argument about whether or not autism should be cured; rather I was trying to get you to clarify your position in a logically consistent manner.
| Quote: |
On a side note, is suffering really measureable? I don't think so, but that's just me.
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Utility calculus sucks ^^. Nonetheless we have to make these decisions regardless of a troubling loki's wager on where exactly the cut lies. I think we can quite reasonably classify things as better, worse and too close to call with logical justifications for each without getting bogged down in quantifying suffering.
| Quote: |
Another side note, I don't consider being neurotypical is really suffering, just as I don't consider being autistic suffering. I say live and let live. Let the person decide what is best for them, instead of forcing decisions on them, as is constantly being suggested. If they're reasonably able to function in, and contribute to society, then what need is there to make them normal? Something RAK said on these lines works well here: |
The thing is this is only a useful solution (and one I agree with by the way) once we have an adult who can make an informed decision. The most realistic avenues for curing autism outright are pre-birth; furthermore it can be argued that much of the suffering caused by HFA(social awkwardness, inability to read social cues) would be unaffected by a post-childhood cure.
I'm as much a libertarian as the next guy, but there are some problems where you simply can't delegate the issue to someone else. I'm obviously not talking about forcefully curing adult HFAs(there's an argument with LFAs), but I don't think that is where the significant part of this debate lies(adult autistics would only exist for about 50 years in post-cure society were it adopted).
| Quote: |
Also care to list the problems with being being autistic on any level? If the problems aren't all that major, then there is little reason to actually dump autism entirely down the tube.
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I'm sure we're both very aware of the problems that lie along the autistic spectrum before you get into the really serious LFA stuff; however, I don't think it's the severity that's really the issue. If we ignore cost(which we may as well, the cure is hypothetical), and we assume our cure is applied before birth or very shortly afterwards(from my appraisal this is the most likely scenario for an outright cure) it's simply a case of which is preferential neurotypical or autistic? Pick one and make all of humanity as such even if the advantage of one over the other is only minor one may as well. Maybe we need a few of each to fulfill different roles? Fair enough, make an educated decision as to the desirous proportion and make it so. What isn't logical is to leave the matter to chance without any consideration of the relative suffering of each party.
We shouldn't hesitate to throw something down the tube if it is causing us trouble, even if that trouble is minute. One should hold no emotional attachment to a malady(whether it be HFA of neurotypical) one has grown to accept and wish it to continue to effect future generations.
| Quote: |
Edit: One last point. Is it really suffering if they have always known it, and have adapted to it in such a way as to be able to function to their maximum potential. This ties in to my second point. |
Suffering is subjective, it can be just as much suffering if one has known it for a lifetime as for a day. Individuals can turn their disadvantages into advantages, and don't get me wrong that's fair enough, it doesn't mean disadvantages are a good thing which we should shelter in future generations.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37604
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 06:23
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| The butcher of paragraphs rides again, with 363 more words. |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
I wasn't really trying to reignite our argument about whether or not autism should be cured; rather I was trying to get you to clarify your position in a logically consistent manner. |
So, have I?
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Utility calculus sucks ^^. |
Utility calculus sounds like trying to calculate IQ. An inaccurate and highly unreliable science. Was that your point? I just looked it up on wikipedia.
| Quote: |
| Nonetheless we have to make these decisions regardless of a troubling loki's wager on where exactly the cut lies. I think we can quite reasonably classify things as better, worse and too close to call with logical justifications for each without getting bogged down in quantifying suffering. |
It seems to rely heavily on opinion, actually. In my opinion the better of the two is undeterminable.
| Quote: |
The thing is this is only a useful solution (and one I agree with by the way) once we have an adult who can make an informed decision. The most realistic avenues for curing autism outright are pre-birth; furthermore it can be argued that much of the suffering caused by HFA(social awkwardness, inability to read social cues) would be unaffected by a post-childhood cure. |
However those issues also could be easily remedied by use of mood-stablizing drugs, such as Olanzapine, which only have to be taken short term to have positive long term effects, though my case may be unique.
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| I'm as much a libertarian as the next guy, but there are some problems where you simply can't delegate the issue to someone else. |
could you expand on this pont? Autistics can easily follow instructions, assuming they can understand them.
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I'm sure we're both very aware of the problems that lie along the autistic spectrum before you get into the really serious LFA stuff. |
Yes, though I feel they're minor enough to be ignored, or treated if necessary.
| Quote: |
| however, I don't think it's the severity that's really the issue. If we ignore cost(which we may as well, the cure is hypothetical), and we assume our cure is applied before birth or very shortly afterwards(from my appraisal this is the most likely scenario for an outright cure) it's simply a case of which is preferential neurotypical or autistic? Pick one and make all of humanity as such even if the advantage of one over the other is only minor one may as well. Maybe we need a few of each to fulfill different roles? Fair enough, make an educated decision as to the desirous proportion and make it so. What isn't logical is to leave the matter to chance without any consideration of the relative suffering of each party. |
why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't both coexist? Sure it'll cause issues in the short term, but in the end all may end up being better than if a cure as given ouright, one way or the other. All other possibilities should be exhausted before mass curing is given is what I'm trying to say.
| Quote: |
| We shouldn't hesitate to throw something down the tube if it is causing us trouble, even if that trouble is minute. One should hold no emotional attachment to a malady(whether it be HFA of neurotypical) one has grown to accept and wish it to continue to effect future generations. |
Butwhat if said "malady" does an equal amount of harm and good? Or the harm can easily be remedied whle leaving the good intact?
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| Suffering is subjective, it can be just as much suffering if one has known it for a lifetime as for a day. Individuals can turn their disadvantages into advantages, and don't get me wrong that's fair enough, it doesn't mean disadvantages are a good thing which we should shelter in future generations. |
If they feel it's a disadvantage then they could take steps to have it remedied.
And on a mostly unrelated side note, I've noticed that I've started to become more neurotypical for no apparent reason.
And sneaking out of my post window I caught you saying this mephi:
| Quote: |
Exactly put. What right do we have to allow maladies be imposed upon future generations? We should eliminate defects genetically before the fetus is born. By removing autistic genes, we might be eliminating interesting aspects of personality, but being neurotypical is no less interesting, and much more sociable. To eliminate antisociality would be to eliminate a malady.
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What right do we have to determine what is a malady and what isn't? Can we just define malady in a wide stroke, saying this is harmful, this is beneficial? It should be taken on a case by case basis, in my opinion.
I am a stubborn SOB I know
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Mephistopheles
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 06:36
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| Re: The butcher of paragraphs rides again, with 363 more wor |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| Quote: |
Exactly put. What right do we have to allow maladies be imposed upon future generations? We should eliminate defects genetically before the fetus is born. By removing autistic genes, we might be eliminating interesting aspects of personality, but being neurotypical is no less interesting, and much more sociable. To eliminate antisociality would be to eliminate a malady.
|
What right do we have to determine what is a malady and what isn't? Can we just define malady in a wide stroke, saying this is harmful, this is beneficial? It should be taken on a case by case basis, in my opinion.
I am a stubborn SOB I know |
My perceptions of mental and physical illnesses and defects are skewed because I myself have two: schizophrenia and osteogenesis imperfecta. It's a debilitating disease that prevents me from working or going to college or even interacting normally with other human beings. So when I hear of autism, I automatically associate it with extreme autism. So, I can admit I'm biased against even light defects because of my experiences with a major defect.
I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not parents want to let their children inherit or form defects. In this way, it comes down to a case by case basis, but in any case, if I had children, and the technology existed to remove defects, I'd do so without hesitation.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37606
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 06:52
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| Mephistopheles wrote: |
My perceptions of mental and physical illnesses and defects are skewed because I myself have two: schizophrenia and osteogenesis imperfecta. It's a debilitating disease that prevents me from working or going to college or even interacting normally with other human beings. So when I hear of autism, I automatically associate it with extreme autism. So, I can admit I'm biased against even light defects because of my experiences with a major defect. |
 I may have the oppisite bias. My autism is on the very light end of things (and getting lighter, oddly), so I don't know what it's like to have a serious affliction. However according to what little info I could find, in this case a vlog posting that I'll probably never find again (i'll look for it tomrrow), most autistics are at the lighter end of things.
| Quote: |
| I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not parents want to let their children inherit or form defects. In this way, it comes down to a case by case basis, but in any case, if I had children, and the technology existed to remove defects, I'd do so without hesitation. |
I would actually let them grow up as they're born, mentally, instread of trying to fix them. But that may just be me. Physical defects, such as osteogenisis imperfecta I would try to cure, but mental illness, I would have to let the child decide, when they're old enough, since, as I stated previously, they're ultimately the most affected by the decision, so they should make it for themselves.
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Mephistopheles
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Post #37607
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 06:59
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| Mephistopheles wrote: |
| My perceptions of mental and physical illnesses and defects are skewed because I myself have two: schizophrenia and osteogenesis imperfecta. It's a debilitating disease that prevents me from working or going to college or even interacting normally with other human beings. So when I hear of autism, I automatically associate it with extreme autism. So, I can admit I'm biased against even light defects because of my experiences with a major defect. |
I may have the oppisite bias. My autism is on the very light end of things (and getting lighter, oddly), so I don't know what it's like to have a serious affliction. However according to what little info I could find, in this case a vlog posting that I'll probably never find again (i'll look for it tomrrow), most autistics are at the lighter end of things. |
Then it seems to me we're at two different ends; I, suffering from a more serious case, view maladies in a darker light while you, suffering from a less serious case, view maladies in a lighter light, perhaps even a positive one. Perhaps we can agree on this statement: serious illnesses such as schizophrenia, multiple personality syndrome, etc, and all physical defects should be cured prior to birth, while serious cases of lighter illnesses should be cured, while lighter cases of lighter illnesses should not be cured until the child is old enough to choose. ?
| AceBrock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not parents want to let their children inherit or form defects. In this way, it comes down to a case by case basis, but in any case, if I had children, and the technology existed to remove defects, I'd do so without hesitation. |
I would actually let them grow up as they're born, mentally, instread of trying to fix them. But that may just be me. Physical defects, such as osteogenisis imperfecta I would try to cure, but mental illness, I would have to let the child decide, when they're old enough, since, as I stated previously, they're ultimately the most affected by the decision, so they should make it for themselves. |
If it were my children, I'd do the opposite, cure them without hesitation. They'd never have to suffer the illness that way.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37609
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 07:08
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| Mephistopheles wrote: |
| Then it seems to me we're at two different ends; I, suffering from a more serious case, view maladies in a darker light while you, suffering from a less serious case, view maladies in a lighter light, perhaps even a positive one. |
That essems to be the case.
| Quote: |
| Perhaps we can agree on this statement: serious illnesses such as schizophrenia, multiple personality syndrome, etc, and all physical defects should be cured prior to birth, while serious cases of lighter illnesses should be cured, while lighter cases of lighter illnesses should not be cured until the child is old enough to choose. ? |
Yeah that sounds pretty good.
| Quote: |
| If it were my children, I'd do the opposite, cure them without hesitation. They'd never have to suffer the illness that way. |
and we head back to the question of suffering, though I guess with more serious diseases, such as schizophrenia it would be a good idea to cure them quickly, but with milder diseases, the decision should be left to the "sufferer"
And it's starting to seem less and less possible for any side (including my own) to stay completely pyrrhonic in any debate such as this, the more I think about it.
 Such a wonderful thing bias is.
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Mephistopheles
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Post #37610
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 07:15
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| Mephistopheles wrote: |
| Then it seems to me we're at two different ends; I, suffering from a more serious case, view maladies in a darker light while you, suffering from a less serious case, view maladies in a lighter light, perhaps even a positive one. |
That essems to be the case. |
It indeed does!
| AceBrock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Perhaps we can agree on this statement: serious illnesses such as schizophrenia, multiple personality syndrome, etc, and all physical defects should be cured prior to birth, while serious cases of lighter illnesses should be cured, while lighter cases of lighter illnesses should not be cured until the child is old enough to choose. ? |
Yeah that sounds pretty good. |
*Pulls out the champagne.*
| AceBrock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If it were my children, I'd do the opposite, cure them without hesitation. They'd never have to suffer the illness that way. |
and we head back to the question of suffering, though I guess with more serious diseases, such as schizophrenia it would be a good idea to cure them quickly, but with milder diseases, the decision should be left to the "sufferer"
And it's starting to seem less and less possible for any side (including my own) to stay completely pyrrhonic in any debate such as this, the more I think about it.
Such a wonderful thing bias is. |
Considering your case, I'd say lighter illnesses aren't too sufferable, but they still produce a good amount of antisociality and other qualities and attributes that aren't very highly valued, like stuttering or incoherence. There's still an amount of suffering involved.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37611
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 07:24
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| Mephistopheles wrote: |
Considering your case, I'd say lighter illnesses aren't too sufferable, but they still produce a good amount of antisociality and other qualities and attributes that aren't very highly valued, like stuttering or incoherence. There's still an amount of suffering involved. |
Yes, but the question that needs answering is is the suffering bad enough to say that it should be ended by certain means, or not suffered at all? Even being neurotypical involves suffering. In your case everyone can agree that it should be remedied, but in mine, well, I would say no, but others would say yes.
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Mephistopheles
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 07:30
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| Mephistopheles wrote: |
Considering your case, I'd say lighter illnesses aren't too sufferable, but they still produce a good amount of antisociality and other qualities and attributes that aren't very highly valued, like stuttering or incoherence. There's still an amount of suffering involved. |
Yes, but the question that needs answering is is the suffering bad enough to say that it should be ended by certain means, or not suffered at all? Even being neurotypical involves suffering. In your case everyone can agree that it should be remedied, but in mine, well, I would say no, but others would say yes. |
I think you're right, it should go case-by-case if it's a lighter form of a lighter illness. I agree that even normal people have their own problems, but I'd rather be normal than suffer what I have, though. In your case, having already been born, I think it's your prerogative whether or not to get cured. Goodthinkfull would obviously disagree though.
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37614
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 07:37
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: The butcher of paragraphs rides again, with 363 more wor |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Mephistopheles wrote: |
| AceBrock wrote: |
| Mephistopheles wrote: |
Considering your case, I'd say lighter illnesses aren't too sufferable, but they still produce a good amount of antisociality and other qualities and attributes that aren't very highly valued, like stuttering or incoherence. There's still an amount of suffering involved. |
Yes, but the question that needs answering is is the suffering bad enough to say that it should be ended by certain means, or not suffered at all? Even being neurotypical involves suffering. In your case everyone can agree that it should be remedied, but in mine, well, I would say no, but others would say yes. |
I think you're right, it should go case-by-case if it's a lighter form of a lighter illness. I agree that even normal people have their own problems, but I'd rather be normal than suffer what I have, though. In your case, having already been born, I think it's your prerogative whether or not to get cured. Goodthinkfull would obviously disagree though. |
yes he would. JD started sounding like him when he said this:
| Quote: |
I'm sure we're both very aware of the problems that lie along the autistic spectrum before you get into the really serious LFA stuff; however, I don't think it's the severity that's really the issue. If we ignore cost(which we may as well, the cure is hypothetical), and we assume our cure is applied before birth or very shortly afterwards(from my appraisal this is the most likely scenario for an outright cure) it's simply a case of which is preferential neurotypical or autistic? Pick one and make all of humanity as such even if the advantage of one over the other is only minor one may as well. Maybe we need a few of each to fulfill different roles? Fair enough, make an educated decision as to the desirous proportion and make it so. What isn't logical is to leave the matter to chance without any consideration of the relative suffering of each party.
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as if we can only have one or the other. somehow I wonder if our 73.8% polimatch score is inaccurate
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37625
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 12:31
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Re: The butcher of paragraphs rides again, with 363 more wor |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| So, have I? |
We'll see ^^.
| Quote: |
Utility calculus sounds like trying to calculate IQ. An inaccurate and highly unreliable science. Was that your point? I just looked it up on wikipedia. |
It's where you make sums of various happenings and attempt to give them a quantified value of utility. If utility calculus was simple the solution to all ethical quandaries would be as trivial and uncontroversial as maths(given an acceptance of utilitarianism in some form).
I was simply accepting that suffering can't be measured whilst recognising it can be qualitatively judged, and that we still must tackle ethical quandaries regardless of inexact tools.
| Quote: |
| It seems to rely heavily on opinion, actually. In my opinion the better of the two is undeterminable. |
Fair enough, this is where the crux of the debate lies not in the libertarian or personal emotional issues. We don't need to get into this part again but it is this part which alone determines the suitability of early life curing.
| Quote: |
| However those issues also could be easily remedied by use of mood-stablizing drugs, such as Olanzapine, which only have to be taken short term to have positive long term effects, though my case may be unique. |
I find this a little hard to believe to be honest. Whilst I can understand how a mood-stabiliser could remedy aspects of the suffering I do not see how it would effect the symptoms themselves.
Nonetheless I think the major problem HFAs face is that through their condition they develop personality trait which are incongruous with comfortable social interaction. At such a point I would hesitantly say these problems cannot and probably should not be cured.
An early/pre life cure prevents the child from developing through autism which is arguably the rise of most of the more problematic symptoms for HFAs.
| Quote: |
could you expand on this pont? Autistics can easily follow instructions, assuming they can understand them.
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I think you missed my point, as a libertarian I'm rather fond of delegating moral decisions to the numerous moral actors responsible rather than taking centralised action. In this case however such delegation is unsuitable because it involves a medical(expert) decision in relation to children unable to make informed decisions. If we simply allow the children to reach maturity and make the choice then the damage, if we determine there to in fact be damage, will already be done.
| Quote: |
Yes, though I feel they're minor enough to be ignored, or treated if necessary. |
But in our scenario they aren't necessary
| Quote: |
| why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't both coexist? Sure it'll cause issues in the short term, but in the end all may end up being better than if a cure as given outright, one way or the other. All other possibilities should be exhausted before mass curing is given is what I'm trying to say. |
I clearly stated it didn't have to be one or the other. I simply think that leaving everything to genetic whimsy is highly unlikely to give us the optimal solution. What we have now is a system where children become autistic based on luck a full understanding of the disease and an ability to effect it gives us some additional options:
a)we find autism preferable and work to increase it's prevalence.
b)we find autism unpreferable and work to decrease it's prevalence.
c)we find some mixed solution preferable and work to move autism frequency to an optimal proportion.
Seeing as autism clearly has a distinct effect on functioning I find the "leave it to nature" argument uncompelling.
| Quote: |
| Butwhat if said "malady" does an equal amount of harm and good? Or the harm can easily be remedied whle leaving the good intact? |
I think it's pretty clear both states have relative harm and relative good. The issue is finding the preferable state. As there appear to be other genetic ways to raise intelligence without suffering the negatives of autism I would tend to favour the neurotypical, but we said we wouldn't get back into this.
| Quote: |
| If they feel it's a disadvantage then they could take steps to have it remedied. |
My point is they probably can't, it's growing up autistic that causes half the problems.
| Quote: |
And on a mostly unrelated side note, I've noticed that I've started to become more neurotypical for no apparent reason.
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good/bad/indifferent for you ^^.
| Quote: |
yes he would. JD started sounding like him when he said this:
| JD wrote: |
I'm sure we're both very aware of the problems that lie along the autistic spectrum before you get into the really serious LFA stuff; however, I don't think it's the severity that's really the issue. If we ignore cost(which we may as well, the cure is hypothetical), and we assume our cure is applied before birth or very shortly afterwards(from my appraisal this is the most likely scenario for an outright cure) it's simply a case of which is preferential neurotypical or autistic? Pick one and make all of humanity as such even if the advantage of one over the other is only minor one may as well. Maybe we need a few of each to fulfill different roles? Fair enough, make an educated decision as to the desirous proportion and make it so. What isn't logical is to leave the matter to chance without any consideration of the relative suffering of each party.
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as if we can only have one or the other. somehow I wonder if our 73.8% polimatch score is inaccurate
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Aww we agree on most things, I suspect. Also to be fair, the paragraph you quoted clearly considers all one and all the other as well as a mix.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel
Last edited by JD-sama on Wed 2007-02-21 22:27; edited 1 time in total |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37642
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 19:07
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: The butcher of paragraphs rides again, with 363 more wor |
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First off you screwed up the whole quoting, but I'll assume it's a single typo and you being too lazy to preview it.
| Quote: |
It's where you make sums of various happenings and attempt to give them a quantified value of utility. If utility calculus was simple the solution to all ethical quandaries would be as trivial and uncontroversial as maths(given an acceptance of utilitarianism in some form).
I was simply accepting that suffering can't be measured whilst recognising it can be qualitatively judged, and that we still must tackle ethical quandaries regardless of inexact tools. |
qualitive judgement seems oh so tricky in certain cases, which is why I prefer a case by case basis for determining whether autism should be cured.
| Quote: |
| Fair enough, this is where the crux of the debate lies not in the libertarian or personal emotional issues. We don't need to get into this part again but it is this part which alone determines the suitability of early life curing. |
I doubt much in the way of serious study has been done in this area, since I just find it saying one or the other is better through google.
| Quote: |
| I find this a little hard to believe to be honest. Whilst I can understand how a mood-stabiliser could remedy aspects of the suffering I do not see how it would effect the symptoms themselves. |
Though I am living breathing proof of it and my psychiatrist was preaching its good in autistics, I may be unique; and it DID take a while for the effects to kick in (few months)
| Quote: |
| Nonetheless I think the major problem HFAs face is that through their condition they develop personality trait which are incongruous with comfortable social interaction. At such a point I would hesitantly say these problems cannot and probably should not be cured. |
I'm sure many introverts are terrible in social situations as well.
| Quote: |
| An early/pre life cure prevents the child from developing through autism which is arguably the rise of most of the more problematic symptoms for HFAs. |
Once again we head back to the matterof whether the problems outweigh any advantages that may be had. Obviously my answer is no.
| Quote: |
| I think you missed my point, |
I know I missed your point, which is why I asked for you to expand on it.
| Quote: |
| as a libertarian I'm rather fond of delegating moral decisions to the numerous moral actors responsible rather than taking centralised action. In this case however such delegation is unsuitable because it involves a medical(expert) decision in relation to children unable to make informed decisions. |
Autistics are unable to make informed decisions? That's the first time I've heard anything like that, though I may be misinterpreting. Vagueness tends to throw me off
| Quote: |
| If we simply allow the children to reach maturity and make the choice then the damage, if we determine there to in fact be damage, will already be done. |
Damage. The last time I heard autism called damage was in this blog: hatingautism.blogspot.com Scary guy he is. So I have a very strong reaction when it's called damage. And studies have shown autism not to be brain damage, thogh obviously you're discussing a different kind of damage, one I'm not fully understanding.
| Quote: |
| But in our scenario they aren't necessary |
Though in the end autism would still cause problems. I think the curing issue is not going to be resolved anytime in the near future, at least between the two of us..
| Quote: |
I clearly stated it didn't have to be one or the other. I simply think that leaving everything to genetic whimsy is highly unlikely to give us the optimal solution. What we have now is a system where children become autistic based on luck a full understanding of the disease and an ability to effect it gives us some additional options:
a)we find autism preferable and work to increase it's prevalence.
b)we find autism unpreferable and work to decrease it's prevalence.
c)we find some mixed solution preferable and work to move autism frequency to an optimal proportion. |
I'd say c if it cane down to those three choices, but why screw around with people's heads in the first place?
| Quote: |
| Seeing as autism clearly has a distinct effect on functioning I find the "leave it to nature" argument uncompelling. |
ANd I find the "you have to choose between this, this, and this" arguement uncompelling and somewhat totalitarian.
| Quote: |
| I think it's pretty clear both states have relative harm and relative good. The issue is finding the preferable state. As there appear to be other genetic ways to raise intelligence without suffering the negatives of autism I would tend to favour the neurotypical, but we said we wouldn't get back into this. |
indeed, but which is optimal depends on who you talk to.
| Quote: |
| My point is they probably can't, it's growing up autistic that causes half the problems. |
stress and anxiety can be remedied quite easily, by learning how to deal with it, reading books on body language (Which I should do sometime), and, in the worst case scenario, pharmaceuticals to help them deal with it.
| Quote: |
good/bad/indifferent for you ^^. |
If this happens on a regular basis half yor arguments are mootish (did I make up that word?)
| Quote: |
| Aww we agree on most things, I suspect. Also to be fair, the paragraph you quoted clearly considers all one and all the other as well as a mix. |
yeah, but I find it a bit difficlt to believe our polimatch could be so high when we vehemently/rationally disagree on this issue, though I could simply be failing to think it through. and I have found other points where I disagree with you. I'll look for them later. For now I rest.
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #37647
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 19:43
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Autistic Art |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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_________________
"The Aim of an Argument ... should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." - Seneca the Younger
"It is often argued that religion is valuable because it makes men good, but even if this were true it would not be a proof that religion is true. That would be an extension of pragmatism beyond endurance. Santa Claus makes children good in precisely the same way, and yet no one would argue seriously that the fact proves his existence. The defense of religion is full of such logical imbecilities." - H. L. Mencken
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37648
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 20:03
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: Autistic Art |
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More autistic art and some poetry:
source
Poetry
I don't need a hollow voice to spill my mind
It can escape through my fingers and onto the page
I should not strain to force my words through a closed door
I feel them upon my keyboard
A multitude of spinning adjectives under my control
I can dance upon them in my mind
Feel me as I touch you with my words
And send me back a cupful of letters on my screen
We communicate blissfully through time and space
Without limits
By Amy Nelson
source
Autistic Identity
by Dave Spicer
They ask me questions.
Carefully, I answer, so deliberate, explaining
Once again the sense in why I do things as I do.
They show me aspects of "the world"
like cheating, violence, lies, deceit,
and tell me I must know all this
to function in it. Simply put,
They cannot see the path I follow.
Me, I know it's there - it doesn't seem
like home somehow, but nowhere does, and look what
their religion says - to "be not of this world but in it".
That's about
just how it is
and how it goes
this path that leads a different way
that what they'd hoped for.
Then they cry - I see the track
a tear makes down a face, and wonder
why they aren't at peace. The weather's
not so bad inside here, really, kind of quiet
watching through the window, seeing, hearing,
sitting, thinking, contemplating all the noise outside
They say "that's how the world is". Fine, but their frustration,
living in that world, gives pause
to folks like me who feel their pulling
hear their pleas
receive their training
all designed
so we can "join them" -
do we have to? There?
Copyright © 1996 Dave Spicer
A poem on communication
(directed to NTs)
by Dave Spicer
So I'm supposed to think like you
in order to relate to you -
my words have got to be just right
to save your precious mind some work.
Instead of seeing where I am,
you're only looking where I'm not,
expecting me to scurry over
Right to where your gaze is fixed.
But I don't want to live in that place,
all pretending, imitating,
guessing what's expected of me
jumping hoops relentlessly
So here's the deal: listen to me,
Try to stretch your minds a little,
Break the mold I can't fit into,
Set communication free.
Somehow I was expecting you to say more on the subject or share your opinions when I saw you post here BB, but this is just as good.
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One Of The Few
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 20:54
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Scotland |
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I suppose autistic people really aren't that different: their poetry is as tiresome as almost anyone else's. 
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Death no worries
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 20:58
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| One Of The Few wrote: |
| I suppose autistic people really aren't that different: their poetry is as tiresome as almost anyone else's. |
Not being a poet, I would have to agree, though it was fairly interesting to me.
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One Of The Few
Minister of Truth
Post #37656
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 21:00
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Scotland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| Not being a poet, I would have to agree, though it was fairly interesting to me. |
Not being an autistic, I would likely find any expression of what it's like to be an autistic to be a bit dull. 
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If you can't say what you mean then you'll never mean what you say
God holds no fears
Death no worries
And while good is readily attainable
Evil is readily endurable |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37657
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 21:01
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| One Of The Few wrote: |
| Not being an autistic, I would likely find any expression of what it's like to be an autistic to be a bit dull. |
Just like i find any expression of what it's like to be normal dull
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One Of The Few
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Post #37658
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 21:07
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| Politics: Just plain NUTS! |
Country: Scotland |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| Just like i find any expression of what it's like to be normal dull |
It's official: empathy is overrated.
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Death no worries
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37659
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 21:12
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| One Of The Few wrote: |
| It's official: empathy is overrated. |
took it long enough to become official. All the fun little side discussions give me something to do when JD isn't here to debate.
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JD-sama
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Posted: Wed 2007-02-21 23:37
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Re: The butcher of paragraphs rides again, with 363 more wor |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| First off you screwed up the whole quoting, but I'll assume it's a single typo and you being too lazy to preview it. |
I sure am lazy ^^. yeah it was a case of a single missing '/'. Still I'm not sure how I managed it, I paste in all the closing tags and use the opening tags that are already in the thread.
| Quote: |
qualitive judgement seems oh so tricky in certain cases, which is why I prefer a case by case basis for determining whether autism should be cured. |
It is indeed tricky, so tricky in fact you'll never get a concrete answer; nonetheless we have to make such qualitative judgements in all moral issues.
Case by case isn't practical. The ultimate ends of the cure side of study into genetically caused autism would be to remove the genetic causes from all of humanity, much like mass vaccination can wipe out diseases. We can't examine case by case because really what we're likely to be doing in a curing scenario is preventing any more cases happening.
| Quote: |
| I doubt much in the way of serious study has been done in this area, since I just find it saying one or the other is better through google. |
It's pretty much the only way all the genetic studies into autism will be applied to a cure. we're a long way off some kind of reliable vector application for a genetic "cure" in adulthood.
| Quote: |
Though I am living breathing proof of it and my psychiatrist was preaching its good in autistics, I may be unique; and it DID take a while for the effects to kick in (few months)
|
well, fair enough. I'm not in a position to argue with you on this, but I find it hard to believe your underlying personality with respect to social contact has not been somewhat geared around your autism; I know mine has and I appear to be a rather milder case. I find it very hard to believe there can be a traditional medicinal cure for negative autistic symptoms, but heck I may well be wrong when I read the research paper I may well change my opinion on the matter.
Actually introverts aren't predisposed to social awkwardness, they lack the strong emotional rewards extroverts receive from social engagement. This actually can make them better social agents except for a lack of stamina so to speak(they like their alone time), which is probably why so many actors are introverts.
I scanned the text you linked, it seems pretty much the same as other pieces I've read on introverts so I don't think it will contradict me, but point out a particular part if you think I've got it wrong.
| Quote: |
| Once again we head back to the matterof whether the problems outweigh any advantages that may be had. Obviously my answer is no. |
That wasn't really my intent, I was trying to suggest that if (hypothetically) autism is a negative property the manner of it's effect will likely be highly be pronounced on the development of personality through childhood. Given such an understanding were we to decide a cure was appropriate a post-childhood cure may be ineffectual, even if it did cure the physical effectors of autism within the patient(whatever they may be).
| Quote: |
| I know I missed your point, which is why I asked for you to expand on it. |
I know, I wasn't trying to score points with that comment, just asking you to approach the rest of my explanation detached from your previous interpretation.
| Quote: |
Autistics are unable to make informed decisions? That's the first time I've heard anything like that, though I may be misinterpreting. Vagueness tends to throw me off
|
OK, I guess I was asking for that with all I've said about punctuation ^^. I meant children rather than autistic children. Much like we don't trust children to decide whether they need an operation for their lung cancer we, generally speaking, don't trust them with medical decisions such as we're currently discussing.
| Quote: |
Damage. The last time I heard autism called damage was in this blog: hatingautism.blogspot.com Scary guy he is. So I have a very strong reaction when it's called damage. And studies have shown autism not to be brain damage, thogh obviously you're discussing a different kind of damage, one I'm not fully understanding.
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Oh come now, I was using the word damage mainly to fit the turn of phrase.
I know autism isn't brain damage in the conventional sense even though it does seem to have environmental triggers.
I was simply reiterating my point that the effect of developing ones personality through a childhood of autism, I suspect, is responsible for many of the symptoms we observe in HFAs regardless of continuing material elements(again, whatever they may be) of autism existing.
| Quote: |
| Though in the end autism would still cause problems. I think the curing issue is not going to be resolved anytime in the near future, at least between the two of us.. |
I tend to agree. What's the fun if we agree though^^?
| Quote: |
I clearly stated it didn't have to be one or the other. I simply think that leaving everything to genetic whimsy is highly unlikely to give us the optimal solution. What we have now is a system where children become autistic based on luck a full understanding of the disease and an ability to effect it gives us some additional options:
a)we find autism preferable and work to increase it's prevalence.
b)we find autism unpreferable and work to decrease it's prevalence.
c)we find some mixed solution preferable and work to move autism frequency to an optimal proportion. |
I'd say c if it cane down to those three choices, but why screw around with people's heads in the first place?[/quote]
They weren't really dictatorial choices proposed towards you per se. What I was trying to say is that the current system is effectively to leave the neurotypical-HFA ratio to chance. Given my abstraction we could add option d) "a random number generator biased heavily towards neurotypicals will be use to determine the expression of autism" which would be equivalent to leaving things be(barring the unknown cost of curing which when discussing the matter at this level we may as well ignore).
Frankly seeing how different the two states are, and how varied in relative suffering they are I find it very hard to believe we could not potentially determine some apt measure of preferability.
| Quote: |
| ANd I find the "you have to choose between this, this, and this" arguement uncompelling and somewhat totalitarian. |
As I said that wasn't my intent, I was just trying to frame the argument. In clarification, I simply don't find the whimsy of nature a particularly trustworthy decider for the distribution of genetic suffering and benefit.
| Quote: |
| indeed, but which is optimal depends on who you talk to. |
Yes, but surely a super intelligent neurotypical state is preferable to autism(of comparable intelligence)?
| Quote: |
| stress and anxiety can be remedied quite easily, by learning how to deal with it, reading books on body language (Which I should do sometime), and, in the worst case scenario, pharmaceuticals to help them deal with it. |
Yes but it would be rather difficult to encourage children to partake in these measure before say 12ish. I contend that the disadvantaged development of social understanding during early childhood can never really be completely unlearned; at best they can be learned over, which is a rather different thing(Imagine speaking your first language(s) vs speaking a language you learned at school).
| Quote: |
If this happens on a regular basis half yor arguments are mootish (did I make up that word?) |
Not really, if I cut off your leg and it grew back 5 years later it would make losing ones leg for 5 years a suffering-neutral experience. Before I get knocked for that, no, I'm not saying autism is like losing a leg they are simply both, for the purpose of this argument, sources of suffering.
| Quote: |
| yeah, but I find it a bit difficlt to believe our polimatch could be so high when we vehemently/rationally disagree on this issue, though I could simply be failing to think it through. and I have found other points where I disagree with you. I'll look for them later. For now I rest. |
Our polimatch only predicts we agree on approximately 3 in 4 issues. We're both libertarians, we're both socialists/communists; that has got to count for a fair bit.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37709
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
Total Words: 306,554
Average words per post: 176.08
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Posted: Thu 2007-02-22 02:37
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Life, liberty, and the pursuit of treatment |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| I sure am lazy ^^. yeah it was a case of a single missing '/'. Still I'm not sure how I managed it, I paste in all the closing tags and use the opening tags that are already in the thread. |
since I don't need to respond logically to that I'll leave it at that
| Quote: |
| It is indeed tricky, so tricky in fact you'll never get a concrete answer; nonetheless we have to make such qualitative judgements in all moral issues. |
hmm...gather the arguments from both sides, have a bipartisan group weigh them and the come to a conclusion. If case by case is impractical
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| Case by case isn't practical. The ultimate ends of the cure side of study into genetically caused autism would be to remove the genetic causes from all of humanity, much like mass vaccination can wipe out diseases. We can't examine case by case because really what we're likely to be doing in a curing scenario is preventing any more cases happening. |
and mass curing has caused so much good. I know I'm getting sidetracked but let me rant, since I'll be using it to make a point. All the curing of diseases such as malaria has done in areas most affected by them is cause a massive ballooning in population which has caused starvation and death at an unusually high scale. Curing something may help in the short term, but there's no guarantee that things will improve in the long term. If we're doing mass curing it should be trialed in a small area with a small group of people beforehand to see if the benefits are worth the risks, though we humans, especially americans (see Iraq War), have a tendency to do what we want without thinking of the consequences.
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| It's pretty much the only way all the genetic studies into autism will be applied to a cure. we're a long way off some kind of reliable vector application for a genetic "cure" in adulthood. |
so care to start funding the studies?
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| well, fair enough. I'm not in a position to argue with you on this, but I find it hard to believe your underlying personality with respect to social contact has not been somewhat geared around your autism; I know mine has and I appear to be a rather milder case. I find it very hard to believe there can be a traditional medicinal cure for negative autistic symptoms, but heck I may well be wrong when I read the research paper I may well change my opinion on the matter. |
Let's see what google turns up.
searching...
searching...
searching...
a clinical trial worth watching
searching...
searching...
searching...
apparently buspirone (buspar) helps calm down autistics.
searching...
searching...
searching...
Apparently Olanzapine (Zyprexa) helps stop disruptive behavior, but there is the small matter of carb cravings and diabetes, but it's still better than drugs like Haldol.
searching...
searching...
searching...
And Methylphenidate (ritalin) has been shown to stop repetitive behavior.
add to that he emotional stablizing qualities of the first two and they'll have a much better quality of life, especially if they're put on it early on. These were the only ones I was put on, thogh there may be others that improve matter for autistics. Moderate to severe anxiety problems+autism=hell.
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| Actually introverts aren't predisposed to social awkwardness, they lack the strong emotional rewards extroverts receive from social engagement. This actually can make them better social agents except for a lack of stamina so to speak(they like their alone time), which is probably why so many actors are introverts. |
True enough, though one could say the same about autistics. I think the reason I'm a terrible insomniac is due to my need for alone time, lacking a better explanation for my insomnia.
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| That wasn't really my intent, I was trying to suggest that if (hypothetically) autism is a negative property the manner of it's effect will likely be highly be pronounced on the development of personality through childhood. Given such an understanding were we to decide a cure was appropriate a post-childhood cure may be ineffectual, even if it did cure the physical effectors of autism within the patient(whatever they may be). |
true enough.
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| I know, I wasn't trying to score points with that comment, just asking you to approach the rest of my explanation detached from your previous interpretation. |
ah. well I'm hardly detached and pyrrhonic. But treatment could help quite a bit
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| OK, I guess I was asking for that with all I've said about punctuation ^^. |
Mind your P(unctuation)s and q(uatation)s
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| I meant children rather than autistic children. Much like we don't trust children to decide whether they need an operation for their lung cancer we, generally speaking, don't trust them with medical decisions such as we're currently discussing. |
yeah that's true. still in the matter of mental functioning I think they shoud have the final say, even if it means waiting until they're older.
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| Oh come now, I was using the word damage mainly to fit the turn of phrase. |
I'm the master of misinterpreatation, unfortunately
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I know autism isn't brain damage in the conventional sense even though it does seem to have environmental triggers.
I was simply reiterating my point that the effect of developing ones personality through a childhood of autism, I suspect, is responsible for many of the symptoms we observe in HFAs regardless of continuing material elements(again, whatever they may be) of autism existing. |
remediable, to an extent, through treatment, but I see your point, and agree with it to an extent. the question is at what point does it do more harm than good?
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| I tend to agree. What's the fun if we agree though^^? |
It'd make my lofe a little easier, but I'd be left woithout mental stimulation
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They weren't really dictatorial choices proposed towards you per se. What I was trying to say is that the current system is effectively to leave the neurotypical-HFA ratio to chance. Given my abstraction we could add option d) "a random number generator biased heavily towards neurotypicals will be use to determine the expression of autism" which would be equivalent to leaving things be(barring the unknown cost of curing which when discussing the matter at this level we may as well ignore).
Frankly seeing how different the two states are, and how varied in relative suffering they are I find it very hard to believe we could not potentially determine some apt measure of preferability. |
I find it hard to believe that we could potentially determine some apt measure of preferability.
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| As I said that wasn't my intent, I was just trying to frame the argument. In clarification, I simply don't find the whimsy of nature a particularly trustworthy decider for the distribution of genetic suffering and benefit. |
And once again we go back to the point that I am the master of misiterpretation, though you could be the master of overvagueness, who knows
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| Yes, but surely a super intelligent neurotypical state is preferable to autism(of comparable intelligence)? |
I'd say both are equal, though that's just because I preach the usefulness of treatment (contemplate going to the aspies for freedom site and preaching my views, just to see how much controversy I could generate).
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| Yes but it would be rather difficult to encourage children to partake in these measure before say 12ish. I contend that the disadvantaged development of social understanding during early childhood can never really be completely unlearned; at best they can be learned over, which is a rather different thing(Imagine speaking your first language(s) vs speaking a language you learned at school). |
hmm...Can't imagine it, but peple do all the time here on the forums.
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| Not really, if I cut off your leg and it grew back 5 years later it would make losing ones leg for 5 years a suffering-neutral experience. Before I get knocked for that, no, I'm not saying autism is like losing a leg they are simply both, for the purpose of this argument, sources of suffering. |
First let me start off by saying, that if I had my leg cut off and had a new one grow back, I would be studied for years for my starfishlike qualities. I see what you're saying though. In the end it would be closer to neutral. but the suffering would stll have had an effect, no doubt about that.
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| Our polimatch only predicts we agree on approximately 3 in 4 issues. We're both libertarians, we're both socialists/communists; that has got to count for a fair bit. |
yes, but I don't think of property as theft, just ownership of land as theft, but that's unimportant in terms of ths discussion.
edit: coding
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37747
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2117
Total Words: 631,269
Average words per post: 298.19
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Thu 2007-02-22 15:13
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Re: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of treatment |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
hmm...gather the arguments from both sides, have a bipartisan group weigh them and the come to a conclusion. If case by case is impractical |
That would be my recommendation.
| Quote: |
| and mass curing has caused so much good. I know I'm getting sidetracked but let me rant, since I'll be using it to make a point. All the curing of diseases such as malaria has done in areas most affected by them is cause a massive ballooning in population which has caused starvation and death at an unusually high scale. Curing something may help in the short term, but there's no guarantee that things will improve in the long term. If we're doing mass curing it should be trialed in a small area with a small group of people beforehand to see if the benefits are worth the risks, though we humans, especially americans (see Iraq War), have a tendency to do what we want without thinking of the consequences. |
I dunno, I'm rather fond of not worrying about smallpox. Diseases only have the effect you describe where: a)they cause death and b)resources are spread thin. Autism in the first world thusly doesn't come under these properties and actually entails a cost(treatment,etc); although, I know you were just making a parallel so I wont push it.
Mass curing is not some kind of panacea(I crack me up) for the worlds problems, but overall I'd say it's a positive force. Furthermore how would you trial curing autism? It's not so common, nor is it contagious; providing it works what are we really expecting to see?
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| so care to start funding the studies? |
Into adulthood genetic manipulation? They already exist detached from autism research, much as genetic screening research does. Ultimately the studies into the genetic causes of autism, of which there are a number(one of which you linked, I seem to recall), will make the rather trivial jump of removing these causes quite possible.
well darn I even did an entrez search(at the risk of all my EBI friends excommunicating me), guess I made a typo.
I'll read up later. Still palliative effects and curing the negative aspects are different things.
| Quote: |
| True enough, though one could say the same about autistics. I think the reason I'm a terrible insomniac is due to my need for alone time, lacking a better explanation for my insomnia. |
I agree there are elements in common, but autistic people tend to have much more of a problem with groups and the actual act of communication, whereas introverts simply find it tiresome.
| Quote: |
| yeah that's true. still in the matter of mental functioning I think they shoud have the final say, even if it means waiting until they're older. |
But what I'm saying is to leave the choice to adulthood may be to present only a far diminished choice.
| Quote: |
| remediable, to an extent, through treatment, but I see your point, and agree with it to an extent. the question is at what point does it do more harm than good? |
At what point does what do more harm than good?
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| I find it hard to believe that we could potentially determine some apt measure of preferability. |
Perhaps apt is too strong a word^^. I believe from a balanced appraisal of both sides of the argument we can decide, at the least, whether we want to try and stem the proliferation of autism(and observe further) or encourage it.
| Quote: |
| I'd say both are equal, though that's just because I preach the usefulness of treatment (contemplate going to the aspies for freedom site and preaching my views, just to see how much controversy I could generate). |
By that logic normal neurotypicals are less preferable than HFA and we should seek to encourage HFA over the neurotypical.
| Quote: |
| hmm...Can't imagine it, but peple do all the time here on the forums. |
Well take my word for it then, for the most part speaking your first language and one you learned later is a very different experience. We learn in rather different ways during childhood compared to in adulthood. That doesn't mean we can't learn, it simply means it's less intuitive.
You can read about body language for years but I very much doubt you'll develop the neurotypical intuition for social cues.
| Quote: |
yes, but I don't think of property as theft, just ownership of land as theft, but that's unimportant in terms of ths discussion.
edit: coding |
The full quote is, "property is theft, property is freedom, property is impossible" -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (OK, it wasn't all in a row like that but cut me some slack). "Property is theft" relates to property not acquired through labour, whilst "property is freedom" relates to the personal property we must own to be individuals and stakeholders in society; which is the property we acquire through labour.
Generally(when we talk about this in modern socialism), this means that you can't own the means of production(which includes land), but you do have functioning ownership over your personal belongings and your production through labour using the means of production(usually represented as being part of a democratic workers community).
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel
Last edited by JD-sama on Fri 2007-02-23 05:52; edited 2 times in total |
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Teimuraz Sakirovadze
Minister of Peace
Post #37754
Joined: 23 Jul 2005
Posts: 1304
Total Words: 126,566
Average words per post: 97.06
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Thu 2007-02-22 18:28
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| Politics: Technocratic Syndicalist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Mephistopheles wrote: |
| AceBrock wrote: |
| Quote: |
Exactly put. What right do we have to allow maladies be imposed upon future generations? We should eliminate defects genetically before the fetus is born. By removing autistic genes, we might be eliminating interesting aspects of personality, but being neurotypical is no less interesting, and much more sociable. To eliminate antisociality would be to eliminate a malady.
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What right do we have to determine what is a malady and what isn't? Can we just define malady in a wide stroke, saying this is harmful, this is beneficial? It should be taken on a case by case basis, in my opinion.
I am a stubborn SOB I know |
My perceptions of mental and physical illnesses and defects are skewed because I myself have two: schizophrenia and osteogenesis imperfecta. It's a debilitating disease that prevents me from working or going to college or even interacting normally with other human beings. So when I hear of autism, I automatically associate it with extreme autism. So, I can admit I'm biased against even light defects because of my experiences with a major defect.
I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not parents want to let their children inherit or form defects. In this way, it comes down to a case by case basis, but in any case, if I had children, and the technology existed to remove defects, I'd do so without hesitation. |
Ekh, osteogenesis imperfecta. Not cool.
Then again, having anemia is no fun either... I already lack a decent amount of motivation, but this is like being permanently tired. No wonder why I drink Amp like water, ne?
Plus, not that it really has helped me - myopia (near-sightedness for those not familiar with ... technical jargon) - and it's hereditary, mother's side of the family. It doesn't get any better with age, either, my grandma had trifocals most of the time. Din I cannot imagine wearing glasses very long, either - I'll have to work on wearing contact lenses! *groan*
-Kirov
_________________
27-X-90 - 25-XI-08
ДА ЗДРАВСТВУЕТ НАШЕГО КИРОВА! |
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #37755
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1697
Total Words: 329,434
Average words per post: 194.13
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Posted: Thu 2007-02-22 18:41
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Myopia isn't that big a concern, really, and wearing glasses is hardly a nuisance (apart from certain physical activities). It's hardly a debilitating factor, I've found in my experience.
_________________
"Rejection of technology ruins a good mind." - RAK
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37760
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
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Posted: Thu 2007-02-22 19:21
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of treatment |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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*Considers commenting on another scrw up in the quoting on JD's part. Decides against it*
| Quote: |
I dunno, I'm rather fond of not worrying about smallpox. Diseases only have the effect you describe where: a)they cause death and b)resources are spread thin. Autism in the first world thusly doesn't come under these properties and actually entails a cost(treatment,etc); although, I know you were just making a parallel so I wont push it.
Mass curing is not some kind of panacea(I crack me up) for the worlds problems, but overall I'd say it's a positive force. Furthermore how would you trial curing autism? It's not so common, nor is it contagious; providing it works what are we really expecting to see? |
economic effects? slower tecnhological advancement rates? Important jobs left undone? I dunno
| Quote: |
| Into adulthood genetic manipulation? They already exist detached from autism research, much as genetic screening research does. Ultimately the studies into the genetic causes of autism, of which there are a number(one of which you linked, I seem to recall), will make the rather trivial jump of removing these causes quite possible. |
Ino which is better. autistic or nerotypical. I doubt any pharmaceutcal comany who stands to make billions off of a cure wil actually fund it.
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well darn I even did an entrez search(at the risk of all my EBI friends excommunicating me), guess I made a typo. |
EBI? Sncyclopedia Britannica? Sadly I'm fairly ignorant
| Quote: |
| I'll read up later. Still palliative effects and curing the negative aspects are different things. |
Some might say they ultimately go hand in hand: The pallative effects make them stand out in a way that ultimately impacts them negatively and causes much of the sufering. Also lowering the level of anxiety helps considerably, as I learned.
| Quote: |
| I agree there are elements in common, but autistic people tend to have much more of a problem with groups and the actual act of communication, whereas introverts simply find it tiresome. |
yeah, that's true, though, though, to use myself as an examples, in my youth (high school years), I didn't really want to talk to anyone unless I had to, I just wanted to read my books.
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| But what I'm saying is to leave the choice to adulthood may be to present only a far diminished choice. |
Far diminished choice to be sure but curing them early (and I know you stole this argument Zoon) takes them out of the decision. really both routes have their ethical issues. The question is: which is better?
| Quote: |
| At what point does what do more harm than good? |
Leaving them autistic.
| Quote: |
| Perhaps apt is too strong a word^^. I believe from a balanced appraisal of both sides of the argument we can decide, at the least, whether we want to try and stem the proliferation of autism(and observe further) or encourage it. |
since a balanced appraisal is something I agree with, I'll move on
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| By that logic normal neurotypicals are less preferable than HFA and we should seek to encourage HFA over the neurotypical. |
Unfortunately I'm not seeing that logic pop up in my argument.
| Quote: |
| Well take my word for it then, for the most part speaking your first language and one you learned later is a very different experience. We learn in rather different ways during childhood compared to in adulthood. That doesn't mean we can't learn, it simply means it's less intuitive. |
(remembers IO and RastaSista thinking wreckles meant freckles and wrinkles respectively, laughs for a minute) Yes that's true, though knowing wha body language meant what would be a helpful skill for autistics nonetheless, even if they have to draw it from memory.
| Quote: |
| You can read about body language for years but I very much doubt you'll develop the neurotypical intuition for social cues. |
No doubt, unless you had a photographic memory.
| Quote: |
The full quote is, "property is theft, property is freedom, property is impossible" -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (OK, it wasn't all in a row like that but cut me some slack). "Property is theft" relates to property not acquired through labour, whilst "property is freedom" relates to the personal property we must own to be individuals and stakeholders in society; which is the property we acquire through labour.
Generally(when we talk about this in modern socialism), this means that you can't own the means of production(which includes land), but you do have functioning ownership over your personal belongings and your production through labour using the means of production(usually represented as being part of a democratic workers community). |
ah. need to do more research.
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37854
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2117
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Posted: Fri 2007-02-23 23:28
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Re: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of treatment |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
| *Considers commenting on another scrw up in the quoting on JD's part. Decides against it* |
To be fair this screw up involved drinking ^^.
| Quote: |
| economic effects? slower tecnhological advancement rates? Important jobs left undone? I dunno |
These are fair points which I discussed to an extent. It raises two considerations; firstly, should one expose individuals to suffering for societal benefit(if one should not the point is moot)?; secondly, to what extent does increasing the autistic population continue to benefit society, and in contrast how much does an individual suffer through living with autism.
Whatever your conclusion on these questions, I find it unlikely some degree of human intervention would not be appropriate.
| Quote: |
| Ino which is better. autistic or nerotypical. I doubt any pharmaceutcal comany who stands to make billions off of a cure wil actually fund it. |
Well that's because their evil capitalists^^. The pharmaceutical company simply recognises that most parents can't deal with the idea (if not the practice) of having autistic children and will pay for the privilege of avoiding that fate.
At least I'm discussing the merits with you^^. I've been open to research and even mixed population solutions from the get go; I simply think that any good solution we arrive upon will be through a logical method and not blind acceptance of nature or personal emotional biases.
| Quote: |
| EBI? Sncyclopedia Britannica? Sadly I'm fairly ignorant |
It's the European version of the NCBI, there is somewhat of a friendly rivalry.
| Quote: |
| Some might say they ultimately go hand in hand: The pallative effects make them stand out in a way that ultimately impacts them negatively and causes much of the sufering. Also lowering the level of anxiety helps considerably, as I learned. |
I understand your point, but I suggest that negative effects go beyond ones subjective appraisal of the symptom itself. For example you can drug someone to perpetual bliss but if they can't use there legs indirect effects of the condition will cause suffering. Similarly you can make someone with autism more relaxed about their problems with social operation but they do not cease to exist.
| Quote: |
| yeah, that's true, though, though, to use myself as an examples, in my youth (high school years), I didn't really want to talk to anyone unless I had to, I just wanted to read my books. |
heh, I had a similar thing in primary school(erm ... elementary school); I spent all my time reading classical literature and political texts... which is probably why I'm here today. In fact I was pretty screwed up back then, being a mild case I could understand the patterns in social relations and mimic them but not really fully relate to them. It can give you a very Machiavellian detached view of your peers, I actually manipulated my supposed "best friend" into poisoning himself and almost dying(which I haven't actually admitted to before^^). I think this lack of intuitive empathy is commonplace in autistic children, and presents a large part of the suffering I would suggest exists for HFAs dealing with social interaction.
| Quote: |
| Far diminished choice to be sure but curing them early (and I know you stole this argument Zoon) takes them out of the decision. really both routes have their ethical issues. The question is: which is better? |
Did I steal this from zoon? I honestly don't recall him making this argument, perhaps back at the beginning of this behemoth thread? It's not really a case of stealing this has always been a part of the pro-cure argument and I've certainly used it before on different forums.
| Quote: |
| Leaving them autistic. |
I think it somewhat depends on your definition of good. My overall appraisal is that being autistic is negative, in that intelligence is achievable with or without it but social coalescence is both important and much much harder to achieve as an HFA.
| Quote: |
| Unfortunately I'm not seeing that logic pop up in my argument. |
You assert that Highly intelligent neurotypicals and HFAs are roughly equal in preferability. I would suggest that intelligence is positive, and thusly an average intelligence neurotypical state is less preferable than a highly intelligent one.
Given this an average intelligence neurotypical state is less preferable than HFA is it not?
| Quote: |
| (remembers IO and RastaSista thinking wreckles meant freckles and wrinkles respectively, laughs for a minute) Yes that's true, though knowing wha body language meant what would be a helpful skill for autistics nonetheless, even if they have to draw it from memory. |
helpful yes, but it certainly doesn't eliminate the suffering. Putting up façades to function isn't fun.
| Quote: |
| ah. need to do more research. |
we're closer than you think, scary isn't it?^^
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37861
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
Total Words: 306,554
Average words per post: 176.08
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sat 2007-02-24 00:15
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| captialism and autism don't agree. |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| To be fair this screw up involved drinking ^^. |
though you managed to stay rational after drinking. That's more than can be said about many americans who drink.
| Quote: |
| These are fair points which I discussed to an extent. It raises two considerations; firstly, should one expose individuals to suffering for societal benefit(if one should not the point is moot)?; secondly, to what extent does increasing the autistic population continue to benefit society, and in contrast how much does an individual suffer through living with autism. |
Can we call this point a draw due to stubbornness? I doubt we'll agree on this point period. still, any bolstering to my post count and word count is good.
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| Whatever your conclusion on these questions, I find it unlikely some degree of human intervention would not be appropriate. |
Indeed, the question we can't seem to answer to the other's liking is how much?
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| Well that's because their evil capitalists^^. |
You could have left off there, because it's definately true/hilarious.
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| The pharmaceutical company simply recognises that most parents can't deal with the idea (if not the practice) of having autistic children and will pay for the privilege of avoiding that fate. |
add taking advantage of people's biases to my list of reasons for hating capitalism.
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| At least I'm discussing the merits with you^^. I've been open to research and even mixed population solutions from the get go; I simply think that any good solution we arrive upon will be through a logical method and not blind acceptance of nature or personal emotional biases. |
if society did something like that for anything I would be very shocked.
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| It's the European version of the NCBI, there is somewhat of a friendly rivalry. |
Ah, I see.
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| I understand your point, but I suggest that negative effects go beyond ones subjective appraisal of the symptom itself. For example you can drug someone to perpetual bliss but if they can't use there legs indirect effects of the condition will cause suffering. Similarly you can make someone with autism more relaxed about their problems with social operation but they do not cease to exist. |
yes, but a reduction in the stress level helps considerably, and might help them open up to those around them, which might help their social functioning considerably, hypothetical of course.
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| heh, I had a similar thing in primary school(erm ... elementary school); |
Im' not that ignorant. Here in Rialto it's called grammer school, elementery school, and, in rare cases, primary school.
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| I spent all my time reading classical literature and political texts... which is probably why I'm here today. |
was reading science fiction until I decided to read 1984, which ultimately led me here[/quote]
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| In fact I was pretty screwed up back then, being a mild case I could understand the patterns in social relations and mimic them but not really fully relate to them. It can give you a very Machiavellian detached view of your peers, I actually manipulated my supposed "best friend" into poisoning himself and almost dying(which I haven't actually admitted to before^^). I think this lack of intuitive empathy is commonplace in autistic children, and presents a large part of the suffering I would suggest exists for HFAs dealing with social interaction. |
First off
| Quote: |
| I actually manipulated my supposed "best friend" into poisoning himself and almost dying(which I haven't actually admitted to before^^). |
Why?
Now to move on to the rest.
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| In fact I was pretty screwed up back then, |
As was I, socially. Though my english teachers noted that I wrote the best essays out of anyone in that class.
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| being a mild case I could understand the patterns in social relations and mimic them but not really fully relate to them. |
I just sat back and watched people. I started to get a sense of when people get bored, as well as seeing other emotions, like shock fear, happiness, and anger, though even today I still mainlt focus on tone of voice to figure out what they're feeling.
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| It can give you a very Machiavellian detached view of your peers, |
Can't disagree
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| I think this lack of intuitive empathy is commonplace in autistic children, and presents a large part of the suffering I would suggest exists for HFAs dealing with social interaction. |
Yeah, but training can help, especially when the mind is most impressionable, I've heard that kids learning a second language around first grade can speak it as fluently as their first lanuage at about 18.
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| Did I steal this from zoon? I honestly don't recall him making this argument, perhaps back at the beginning of this behemoth thread? |
No zoon stole it from me and used it in the latest abortion debate. I was trying to call him out on it.
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| I think it somewhat depends on your definition of good. My overall appraisal is that being autistic is negative, in that intelligence is achievable with or without it but social coalescence is both important and much much harder to achieve as an HFA. |
And mine being positive, in that the more problematic symptoms can be treated and made less problematic, possibly.
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You assert that Highly intelligent neurotypicals and HFAs are roughly equal in preferability. I would suggest that intelligence is positive, and thusly an average intelligence neurotypical state is less preferable than a highly intelligent one.
Given this an average intelligence neurotypical state is less preferable than HFA is it not? |
ah, well we stll need maual labor and I'd say neurotypicals of any intellegence above an IQ of 70, as well as autistics above 90 are equal.
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| helpful yes, but it certainly doesn't eliminate the suffering. Putting up façades to function isn't fun. |
no, it's not, but I would rather be able to function socially than to have problems with school and work, and job interviews.
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| we're closer than you think, scary isn't it?^^ |
scary, especially since we can't seem to come any nearer to each other on this issue. Ah well, Even Mephi and I disagre, with our 81.9% polimatch
_________________
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37912
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2117
Total Words: 631,269
Average words per post: 298.19
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sat 2007-02-24 17:48
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Re: captialism and autism don't agree. |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Progress! We're slowly cutting down the debate points^^.
| AceBrock wrote: |
| though you managed to stay rational after drinking. That's more than can be said about many americans who drink. |
That's because you start serious drinking so late. If you took a page from us northern Europeans you'd smashing up town in a drunken rage by 12, and then mellowly sipping a glass of fine malt whiskey by the time your my age(stopping occasionally to remind Jeeves to go easy on the soda).
| Quote: |
| Can we call this point a draw due to stubbornness? I doubt we'll agree on this point period. still, any bolstering to my post count and word count is good. |
Fair enough. Although it seems I have to write some 6000 word posts to get my new medal up to first class.
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| Indeed, the question we can't seem to answer to the other's liking is how much? |
Or perhaps more accurately where that interference should be placed; you're still completely against any artificial selection for or against autism before birth are you not?
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| You could have left off there, because it's definately true/hilarious. |
I was tempted, but then I'd miss out on all the fun of railing against the pharmaceutical industry.
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| add taking advantage of people's biases to my list of reasons for hating capitalism. |
Capitalism never cares about why there is a desire, only that there is. It's supporters generally consider this a virtue.
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| if society did something like that for anything I would be very shocked. |
So would I but society is full of idiots. Realistically they'll just remove autism as soon as it's both possible and profitable.
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| yes, but a reduction in the stress level helps considerably, and might help them open up to those around them, which might help their social functioning considerably, hypothetical of course. |
Yes, I understand how removing the panic, fear and confusion can be half the battle; still you can't teach people things they simply don't know with drugs.
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| Im' not that ignorant. Here in Rialto it's called grammer school, elementery school, and, in rare cases, primary school. |
You never know with Americans^^.
The thing is sometimes we use the same terms for different things(a grammar school is almost exclusively a high-school which requires a test for entrance) so it's always best to clarify.
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| was reading science fiction until I decided to read 1984, which ultimately led me here |
I read a lot of Asimov way back when, probably what lead me to be a computer scientist.
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First off
| JD wrote: |
| I actually manipulated my supposed "best friend" into poisoning himself and almost dying(which I haven't actually admitted to before^^). |
Why? |
Curiosity. Curiosity about death, about what it felt like to kill someone, about my ability to manipulate people, boredom. As I said, "pretty screwed up".
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| As was I, socially. Though my english teachers noted that I wrote the best essays out of anyone in that class. |
I actually found creative writing impossible at a young age. I'm reasonably good now, but yes technical essays were always trivial.
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| I just sat back and watched people. I started to get a sense of when people get bored, as well as seeing other emotions, like shock fear, happiness, and anger, though even today I still mainlt focus on tone of voice to figure out what they're feeling. |
I used to, and I can't help but feel I'm slowly starting to sound like a psychopath^^, observe patterns in peoples behaviour detached from any emotion they might have been feeling. I thought of people as input-output machines which ultimately behaved predictably with the right input. I'd test this with really silly things, for example I observed that sometimes a false belief can spread simply because people don't wish to appear lacking in knowledge. So I'd do things like push conversations in the direction of a movie the name of which I would claim I didn't know, then spread a false name through suggestions to the "alphas" in the class I'd then introduce individuals who knew the real name and watch them be convinced by the ignorant majority.
You see understanding feelings and not relating to them can produce a very skewed and dangerous view of people around you, which is one of the main reasons I find autism troublesome within a socially organised group of intelligences.
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| Yeah, but training can help, especially when the mind is most impressionable, I've heard that kids learning a second language around first grade can speak it as fluently as their first lanuage at about 18. |
It's not so much how fluent you are but the mechanism with which you recall the information. Compare the formation of a sentence in your mind to the solution of a quadratic equation, we've likely done quadratic equations as long as most people have learnt second languages; still whilst fast my solution to both is undoubtedly mechanical.
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| And mine being positive, in that the more problematic symptoms can be treated and made less problematic, possibly. |
But their still problematic nonetheless, why carry a tyre however small.
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| ah, well we stll need maual labor and I'd say neurotypicals of any intellegence above an IQ of 70, as well as autistics above 90 are equal. |
I agree there all equal in one sense, I'm a rather egalitarian chap once you get to know me. But are they all equally preferable, you can be strong and smart; there is no need to faster a race of deltas.
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| no, it's not, but I would rather be able to function socially than to have problems with school and work, and job interviews. |
But smart neurotypicals have the best of both worlds, shouldn't we aim towards curing both autism and ignorance?
| Quote: |
| scary, especially since we can't seem to come any nearer to each other on this issue. Ah well, Even Mephi and I disagre, with our 81.9% polimatch |
"if everybody's thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking"
I think we've come somewhat closer to an understanding if nothing else.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37925
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
Total Words: 306,554
Average words per post: 176.08
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sat 2007-02-24 21:36
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: captialism and autism don't agree. |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| Progress! We're slowly cutting down the debate points^^. |
Ah, yes, progress is a wonderful thing.
| AceBrock wrote: |
| That's because you start serious drinking so late. If you took a page from us northern Europeans you'd smashing up town in a drunken rage by 12, and then mellowly sipping a glass of fine malt whiskey by the time your my age(stopping occasionally to remind Jeeves to go easy on the soda). |
We Americans seem to be too wrapped up in virtue.
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| Fair enough. Although it seems I have to write some 6000 word posts to get my new medal up to first class. |
Write a few overly detailed essays, that'll do the trick. though I'll do whatever it takes just for third class
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| Or perhaps more accurately where that interference should be placed; you're still completely against any artificial selection for or against autism before birth are you not? |
Indeed.
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| I was tempted, but then I'd miss out on all the fun of railing against the pharmaceutical industry. |
yeah, your rallying against the pharmaceudical companies as the best part of that whole post in my opinion
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| Capitalism never cares about why there is a desire, only that there is. It's supporters generally consider this a virtue. |
It's supporters are idiots. That's why I became a communist. I think McCarthyism and the UsSR permenantly ruined communism's reputation in America, though the oil companies could still do the same to capitalism.
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| So would I but society is full of idiots. Realistically they'll just remove autism as soon as it's both possible and profitable. |
Yes, crazy damn capitalists (another reason I wish the US had socialized medicine).
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| Yes, I understand how removing the panic, fear and confusion can be half the battle; still you can't teach people things they simply don't know with drugs. |
No that's true, but it may help them in learning it, by making them a bit more focused. I wass fairlt ADD-like until I was put on meds, that calmed me down and helped me focus.
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| You never know with Americans^^. |
Sadly we americans are far too ignorant in many matters, though I have taken a special effort to ensure that I'm smarter than those around me.
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| The thing is sometimes we use the same terms for different things(a grammar school is almost exclusively a high-school which requires a test for entrance) so it's always best to clarify. |
Yeah I see your point.
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| I read a lot of Asimov way back when, probably what lead me to be a computer scientist. |
Probably why I'm trying to get my certification in web page design
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| Curiosity. Curiosity about death, about what it felt like to kill someone, about my ability to manipulate people, boredom. As I said, "pretty screwed up". |
you are strange, though I'm hardly normal.
| Quote: |
| I actually found creative writing impossible at a young age. I'm reasonably good now, but yes technical essays were always trivial. |
yeah, with me it was write the essay in two days then spend the next two fixing it up.
| Quote: |
| I used to, and I can't help but feel I'm slowly starting to sound like a psychopath^^, |
I wouldn't be suprised if you were
| Quote: |
| observe patterns in peoples behaviour detached from any emotion they might have been feeling. I thought of people as input-output machines which ultimately behaved predictably with the right input. I'd test this with really silly things, for example I observed that sometimes a false belief can spread simply because people don't wish to appear lacking in knowledge. So I'd do things like push conversations in the direction of a movie the name of which I would claim I didn't know, then spread a false name through suggestions to the "alphas" in the class I'd then introduce individuals who knew the real name and watch them be convinced by the ignorant majority. |
so people were devices for your own entertainment? that's almost like what a seral killer would feel about others, in my mind.
| Quote: |
| You see understanding feelings and not relating to them can produce a very skewed and dangerous view of people around you, which is one of the main reasons I find autism troublesome within a socially organised group of intelligences. |
Manipulative people are dangerous, yes, but we can train them to be a bit too submissive to be manipulative. though not entirely submissive, they still need to be able to think and act on their own.
| Quote: |
| It's not so much how fluent you are but the mechanism with which you recall the information. Compare the formation of a sentence in your mind to the solution of a quadratic equation, we've likely done quadratic equations as long as most people have learnt second languages; still whilst fast my solution to both is undoubtedly mechanical. |
Noth that I can do quadratic equations in the first place (te only math Ido these days is for calculatng tax and how much I'd be making per year given a certain payrate and number of hours worked each week (though I am unemployed)
| Quote: |
| But their still problematic nonetheless, why carry a tyre however small. |
Because everyone carries a tire, of varying sizes, whether the burden of a secret or promise, or the inability to communicate. (i always though tyre was an exclusively australian spelling, you learn something new evey day, lol)
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I agree there all equal in one sense, I'm a rather egalitarian chap once you get to know me. But are they all equally preferable, you can be strong and smart; there is no need to faster a race of deltas. |
I find strength training boring(though if I get a job stocking I'm going to be getting a lot of it), plus there are people who live for their jobs, and don't wish to do any others. Coal miners are like this in many cases as well as scientists.
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| But smart neurotypicals have the best of both worlds, shouldn't we aim towards curing both autism and ignorance? |
Ignornce yes, autism, debatable. The longer autism goes without a cure the more power the autistic community gains, at this rate they're going to be really hard to push around. I'm pretty sure the autistic community is rather large in the UK, due to the fact that autism rates are higher there.
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"if everybody's thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking"
I think we've come somewhat closer to an understanding if nothing else. |
yes we have.
_________________
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37929
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2117
Total Words: 631,269
Average words per post: 298.19
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sat 2007-02-24 22:15
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Re: captialism and autism don't agree. |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I think we've pretty much wrapped things up with this.
| AceBrock wrote: |
Write a few overly detailed essays, that'll do the trick. though I'll do whatever it takes just for third class |
I'm at a disadvantage, I much prefer commenting on other peoples threads rather than forging my own.
| Quote: |
| No that's true, but it may help them in learning it, by making them a bit more focused. I was fairly ADD-like until I was put on meds, that calmed me down and helped me focus. |
That's true, ADD-like behaviour is quite common among autistic children it seems(although I was always quite stoic). Still there are pretty effective means of dealing with this aspect and the children still have a very pronounced difficulty with social situations. To use an example, simple avoidance of eye-contact can lead to exclusion in children's social groups. I'm sure we've all learnt to deal with eye-contact but if I'm anything to go by it still really sucks.
| Quote: |
| you are strange, though I'm hardly normal. |
I'm not sure if I'd be so accepting of my past self ^^.
| Quote: |
| I wouldn't be suprised if you were |
thanks 0_o. Actually when I was diagnosed with aspergers I'd already sorted myself out so they had a lot of trouble deciding what to call me but I did hear that word tossed around(well, the favoured headshrinkese for it at least), much to my dismay. Seriously though I've done a little psych and I'm far too nice to be a psychopath.
| Quote: |
| so people were devices for your own entertainment? that's almost like what a seral killer would feel about others, in my mind. |
Not so much entertainment, experimentation. I've always been very curious about people react to different circumstances and how social dynamics function. We all do silly things when we're kids though, I had just hadn't grasped the full picture yet. As soon as I became a communist at about 12 I normalised a lot as before that my political philosophy didn't specify a particular logical justification for empathy.
| Quote: |
| Manipulative people are dangerous, yes, but we can train them to be a bit too submissive to be manipulative. though not entirely submissive, they still need to be able to think and act on their own. |
These are intelligent people we're talking about. I find the concept of people trying to "train" me to be submissive a little scary to be honest.
| Quote: |
| Because everyone carries a tire, of varying sizes, whether the burden of a secret or promise, or the inability to communicate. (i always though tyre was an exclusively australian spelling, you learn something new evey day, lol) |
True, but if you could drop your tyres wouldn't you?
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I find strength training boring(though if I get a job stocking I'm going to be getting a lot of it), plus there are people who live for their jobs, and don't wish to do any others. Coal miners are like this in many cases as well as scientists. |
Strength training is the kind of thing you get used to with time. The worst thing about it for me was the crowded gyms. Nonetheless the desire to procreate got the better of me and strength training is rather refreshing once you get into a routine.
More to the point though, coal miners can still be dedicated to their jobs whilst being intelligent; we do not exist entirely for our profession. In a democracy we require the entire electorate to be reasonably intelligent.
Given the choice I'd rather be smart, strong and deal with social situations with ease.
| Quote: |
| Ignornce yes, autism, debatable. The longer autism goes without a cure the more power the autistic community gains, at this rate they're going to be really hard to push around. I'm pretty sure the autistic community is rather large in the UK, due to the fact that autism rates are higher there. |
For the autism lobby to succeed it would have to become so powerful it can override the dominion of parent over child(or even individual over their body). I frankly don't see this happening, given our current societal model parents will always win when they choose to have their kids "made normal" and couples will always win when they decide to have autistic gametes selected against.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #37930
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1741
Total Words: 306,554
Average words per post: 176.08
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sat 2007-02-24 22:46
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| Politics: Anarcho-communist |
Country: United States of Oppression |
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| Re: captialism and autism don't agree. |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| I think we've pretty much wrapped things up with this. |
took long enough.
| AceBrock wrote: |
| I'm at a disadvantage, I much prefer commenting on other peoples threads rather than forging my own. |
Yeah that's true. maybe if someone could make a thread that draws tis much contraversy, you could manage.
| Quote: |
| That's true, ADD-like behaviour is quite common among autistic children it seems(although I was always quite stoic). Still there are pretty effective means of dealing with this aspect and the children still have a very pronounced difficulty with social situations. To use an example, simple avoidance of eye-contact can lead to exclusion in children's social groups. I'm sure we've all learnt to deal with eye-contact but if I'm anything to go by it still really sucks. |
Eye contact has become easier or me, still haven't gotten job though. The social problem seems to be the biggest, and the most difficult to deal with. School would be difficult to work out but working in fairl isolated environments might be a good choice for autistics. Homeschooling and regular schooling used in combination might help with the matter of education and social training.
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure if I'd be so accepting of my past self ^^. |
I don't know a whole lot about your past self, so all misinterpretations revlve around ignorance.
I love it when people give this sort of reaction. Good for laughs.
| Quote: |
| Actually when I was diagnosed with aspergers I'd already sorted myself out so they had a lot of trouble deciding what to call me but I did hear that word tossed around(well, the favoured headshrinkese for it at least), much to my dismay. |
My diagnosis was more direct, for better or worse, though it required much in the way of testing. Though when I first heard it I interpreted it as "assburgers" (hmm...assburgers )
Seriously though I've done a little psych and I'm far too nice to be a psychopath.[/quote] I'm sure people will believe that after you made your friend drink poison
| Quote: |
| Not so much entertainment, experimentation. I've always been very curious about people react to different circumstances and how social dynamics function. We all do silly things when we're kids though, I had just hadn't grasped the full picture yet. As soon as I became a communist at about 12 I normalised a lot as before that my political philosophy didn't specify a particular logical justification for empathy. |
A 12 year old communist. That's the first time I've heard of such a thing. I was far too introverted to try to manipulate anyone.
| Quote: |
| These are intelligent people we're talking about. I find the concept of people trying to "train" me to be submissive a little scary to be honest. |
I could have phrased that better. Those who are manipulative, and pose a threat to others (like you) should be discouraged from using that ability.
| Quote: |
| True, but if you could drop your tyres wouldn't you? |
actually, no, because people tend to hate people who have more or better abilities than them. I would rather bear the burden than have groups of people hating me.
| Quote: |
| More to the point though, coal miners can still be dedicated to their jobs whilst being intelligent; we do not exist entirely for our profession. In a democracy we require the entire electorate to be reasonably intelligent. |
and the latter reason is why I dislike democracy. People are idiots. The former is true, but there is no guarantee that people will be happy with manual labor.
| Quote: |
| Given the choice I'd rather be smart, strong and deal with social situations with ease. |
Personally I'm happy with the way I am, but I may be unique.
| Quote: |
| For the autism lobby to succeed it would have to become so powerful it can override the dominion of parent over child(or even individual over their body). I frankly don't see this happening, given our current societal model parents will always win when they choose to have their kids "made normal" and couples will always win when they decide to have autistic gametes selected against. |
yes, true enough. but the rates of autism are slowly increasing, and eventually they may be able to throw their weight around. For now tough people tend to ignore them.
_________________
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #37936
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2117
Total Words: 631,269
Average words per post: 298.19
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sun 2007-02-25 00:57
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Re: captialism and autism don't agree. |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| AceBrock wrote: |
I'm sure people will believe that after you made your friend drink poison |
Actually I made him inhale it^^. I don't tell real people only fake electronic people, I'm still friends with the guy.
| Quote: |
| A 12 year old communist. That's the first time I've heard of such a thing. I was far too introverted to try to manipulate anyone. |
Well when you read a lot of books at such a young age your going to go through swings and roundabouts with regards to your political allegiances. Whilst I was a LibCap and, for a time, an Authoritarian I felt that logically one should maximise the completion of ones own goals while convincing others you are working for theirs; if killing someone benefited or amused me without putting me at risk it was only logical. Bizarrely it was appreciation of concepts such as chivalry and karma within a selfish gene model that made me reconsider communism.
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| I could have phrased that better. Those who are manipulative, and pose a threat to others (like you) should be discouraged from using that ability. |
Ah, I see, the tricky thing is that if they are anything like me no-one will notice. The only people in the world that ever noticed that I was anything other than neurotypical were the people on this forum (whom I told because I don't care) and a few psychiatrists who got more than they bargained for on a routine outreach program(whom I let know because I was curious). You'd have to put anyone who showed signs of HFA (or pretty much anything aside from neurotypical) through such a program. I think rather than focusing on teaching weird people they need to accept moral authority we need to teach everyone the logical and philosophical basis of morality at a young age.
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| actually, no, because people tend to hate people who have more or better abilities than them. I would rather bear the burden than have groups of people hating me. |
pfft if your smart, strong and charismatic you can convince people you have a burden when you don't.
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| and the latter reason is why I dislike democracy. People are idiots. The former is true, but there is no guarantee that people will be happy with manual labor. |
If only we had something better.
Happiness rarely comes with any guarantees.
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| Personally I'm happy with the way I am, but I may be unique. |
I'm happy with my personality, but if I could get more power and ability to fulfil the goals in life I have decided upon I would in a second.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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