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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #18135
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Posted: Thu 2006-03-02 04:11
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| Politics: Satanist |
Country: Titan |
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| A Technocratic Society |
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It's observable that the easiest way to determine the overall sophistication of a culture can be done by analyzing its technological sophistication. Of course, some cultures exist without proper means of applying more and more sophisticated equipment to increase the productivity of everyday life. The Easter Islanders once had trees, but most likely uprooted their entire ecosystem of trees in order to bring the famed statues of Easter Island to their positions. In the end, the entire island was deforested, and the inhabitants were thus without any means of leaving the island by building boats. They were completely isolated culturally until European contact.
In a sense, even the Africans were like this. Also, even the Indians of southern Asia. Their cultures had neither the motivation, nor the ability, to progress naturally, at that point in time, due to social immobility and lack of adequate resources to sustain a growing and thriving technological culture. Africa lacked the wide variety of crops available to the cultures that inhabited Eurasia, and the wide variety of domesticatable animals. Horses were absent from Africa. Thus, their level of communication and transportation was stunted. It's no wonder that the Europeans conquered them with guns against spears.
The Chinese are a more diverse and unique people than we give them credit for. Dozens of regional dialects differ enough to make hundreds of "Chinese" languages, and the people themselves are quite diverse as an Asiatic race. Their society has mostly been a single culture, nothing on the level of European statism and fragmentation. Yet, without the level of competition as Europe or Mesopotamia, China developed at a technological rate that was almost unparalleled for millenia. Until around the 14th-15th centuries, when Europe surpassed China, and China began to stagnate. Possibly it was the aftereffect of Mongol rule. Perhaps China fell into an isolationist mood and lack of motivation was the problem. But in any case, for a time, China proved that technological advance doesn't always require competition with a foreign power. Europe had always pivoted on the rule of competition, it shows in the system of mixed market economy we have spread globally.
My point is, technology is not to be feared. Without efficient machines, we couldn't grow crops very well, we couldn't build cities or empires.
Technocracy is, basically, rule by technocrats, namely scientists and technicians. When I use the term technocracy, I don't have to believe in a Platonian society where scientist-kings rule the roost, but I advocate a society in which science is completely secular, where society is secular, and ruled by empirical logic. An example of a technocratic society would be (quite extravagantly and unrealistic) as the Federation from Star Trek. However, a realistic technocratic society would be one in which education and knowledge was pursued and attainable, where law and science and schooling was secular and empirical, and where rationalist logic was valued more than superstition and pseudo-science.
Technocracy doesn't have to mean a society of Borg drones. We wouldn't have to be mindless slaves to the Collective, though that is an interesting concept, and one that is very misunderstood. In a sense, the Borg Collective is the most democratic organization in reality or imagination, because the Collective is comprised of every individual who is a part of it, and those individuals make decisions which dictate orders to the entire society. So, everyone has a say, and the will of the people is mandated, i.e. people power. However, I do not advocate technocracy on that level. I don't believe that governments have a right to use surveillance against law-abiding citizens or implant them with theoretical (for the moment) identification devices to track their movements. Technology as a form of control is not a technocratic aspect, but an aspect of rampant totalitarianism.
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Da Jerm
Junior Spy
Post #18188
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Posted: Thu 2006-03-02 19:26
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I agree with this on many levels. However, a "technocratic society" is not a realistic option. The technicians need to be working as technicians, not professional politicians. Much as I feel it's important to seperate one's religious beliefs from one's political belief's, I feel that the same logic should be applied here. It is important to rule based upon what is best for society as a whole, in the case a democratic nations, the will of the people. Professional politics is a necissary part of operating a functional society.
That said, I feel the our scientific community needs to be given much more attention by the political body.
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| Big Brother wrote: |
| I don't care for tyrants ... especially imaginary ones. |
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Therapy Needed
Committee Leader
Post #18193
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Posted: Thu 2006-03-02 20:30
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Sanctuary |
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| Scientists are not gods, nor are they superior to anyone else. They are good at what they do, and what they do is science. Running a government is not science. Running a society is not science. You're also going to run into problems with everyone on the planet who advocates even a remotely democratic government with this idea, as an oligarchy of scientists and technicians is merely the same shit in a different package. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18195
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Posted: Thu 2006-03-02 20:43
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Yeah, what they said.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
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sorianofan
Filthy Animal
Post #18201
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Posted: Thu 2006-03-02 21:33
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| Politics: Libertarian |
Country: American Empire |
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| Technocracy is often very elitist. Thus, as Orwell feared, things would logically become a technocratic authoritarian nightmare. |
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psikeyhackr
Inner Party Member
Post #18234
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-03 02:09
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| Politics: Friggin Wacko! |
Country: United States |
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| Technicians of the world unite. Nuke the technomorons. |
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| Quote: |
| I agree with this on many levels. However, a "technocratic society" is not a realistic option. The technicians need to be working as technicians, not professional politicians. |
Yeah but the technicians get sick of working on the technotrash the technonitwits buy. Why anybody wants a video iPod so they can watch a 2" screen is beyond me. Then they simply must have a 50" flat screen at home.
At least an iPod sounds better than an 8-track. No wow and flutter. 
psikey
ps - At least the technology of the internet makes it possible for me to attack the economists.
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Da Jerm
Junior Spy
Post #18244
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-03 03:22
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I'm sure they do get bored, I don't think that's a justification for "technocracy". When the guy flipping your burgers at McDonalds gets bored should he be encouraged to go found "Burger-topia"? I think not. Nor does a technologist being bored imply a need for him to become a politician.
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| Big Brother wrote: |
| I don't care for tyrants ... especially imaginary ones. |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #18248
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-03 03:40
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| Politics: Satanist |
Country: Titan |
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| Da Jerm wrote: |
I agree with this on many levels. However, a "technocratic society" is not a realistic option. The technicians need to be working as technicians, not professional politicians. Much as I feel it's important to seperate one's religious beliefs from one's political belief's, I feel that the same logic should be applied here. It is important to rule based upon what is best for society as a whole, in the case a democratic nations, the will of the people. Professional politics is a necissary part of operating a functional society.
That said, I feel the our scientific community needs to be given much more attention by the political body. |
I don't suggest that technicians become politicians at all. My view on a technocratic society is one in which science and logic form a social order. As for will of the people, people voted in Hitler and Bush. At this point, I really don't trust democracy because in actuality, most people are ignorant dolts who shouldn't have the right to vote in the first place. Most Americans seem to know more about the Simpson's than their own First Amendment rights.
| therapyneeded wrote: |
| Scientists are not gods, nor are they superior to anyone else. They are good at what they do, and what they do is science. Running a government is not science. Running a society is not science. You're also going to run into problems with everyone on the planet who advocates even a remotely democratic government with this idea, as an oligarchy of scientists and technicians is merely the same shit in a different package. |
| sorianofan wrote: |
| Technocracy is often very elitist. Thus, as Orwell feared, things would logically become a technocratic authoritarian nightmare. |
Of course they aren't gods. But a highly intelligent person is superior to a highly unintelligent person. Obviously, one of them is going to make a good living, the other will be stuck in menial jobs as he deserves. Responsibility to the responsible, I say. Eventually, humanity is either going to kill itself off, or abandon vestigial animalism in favor of rational thought and rule of order.
I don't suggest elitism. I suggest social conditioning of rationalism.
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Acebrock
Minster of Plenty
Post #18249
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-03 03:43
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Quote: |
As for will of the people, people voted in Hitler and Bush. At this point, I really don't trust democracy because in actuality, most people are ignorant dolts who shouldn't have the right to vote in the first place. Most Americans seem to know more about the Simpson's than their own First Amendment rights.
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And that's why I'm a libertarian-socialist
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #18256
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-03 04:13
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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| Quote: |
| As for will of the people, people voted in Hitler and Bush. At this point, I really don't trust democracy because in actuality, most people are ignorant dolts who shouldn't have the right to vote in the first place. Most Americans seem to know more about the Simpson's than their own First Amendment rights. |
I agree with that, a little. I use to think (back when I was...eh, 16 or so, that geniocracy would solve those problems. Eventually, however, I realized that would only cause more problems. IMO, the best way is to get people educated about their government.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #18258
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-03 04:19
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| Politics: Satanist |
Country: Titan |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As for will of the people, people voted in Hitler and Bush. At this point, I really don't trust democracy because in actuality, most people are ignorant dolts who shouldn't have the right to vote in the first place. Most Americans seem to know more about the Simpson's than their own First Amendment rights. |
I agree with that, a little. I use to think (back when I was...eh, 16 or so, that geniocracy would solve those problems. Eventually, however, I realized that would only cause more problems. IMO, the best way is to get people educated about their government. |
I couldn't agree more. If I ever became a politician, my immediate concern would be towards education funding. If I could, I'd turn the trillions of dollars spent on making bombs into textbooks, teachers, supplies, and additional facilities. An educated population is a superior population. Geniocracy does have its interesting points, but who would qualify? After all, IQ is a subjective test. Shakespeare might not have scored a high IQ, and probably not Adolf Hitler, although both men made an enormous impact, whether negative or positive, on world history. And if we were ruled by geniocrats, it would degenerate into an elitist oligarchy along the lines of the 5000 Tyrants of Athens.
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Therapy Needed
Committee Leader
Post #18285
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-03 14:06
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Sanctuary |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| But a highly intelligent person is superior to a highly unintelligent person. |
In what ways? Many intelligent people I know are socially retarded, while some of the dumbest people I know are great with people. Also, how are you defining intelligence? Technical and scientific ability does not translate into the ability to govern. I would actually fear a scientist in charge of the government, because many scientists translate the near determinism (not true in the case of quantum physicists and any scientists who work with chaotic systems, of course) of their craft to other areas. The last thing society needs is an intelligent someone who's on a power-trip trying to save the universe.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Responsibility to the responsible, I say. |
Now you're proposing that intelligent people are necessarilly more responsible? If you have some statistics, please share them, but I know plenty of people who piss away their talent while someone who's not nearly as gifted works his or her ass off to move up in life.
I would also like to point out that anything other than "Responsibility to the individual" is necessarily authoritarian. |
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psikeyhackr
Inner Party Member
Post #18318
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-04 00:12
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| Politics: Friggin Wacko! |
Country: United States |
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| The Vulcan Social Order |
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| Quote: |
| I don't suggest that technicians become politicians at all. My view on a technocratic society is one in which science and logic form a social order. |
So we need a new type of politician, probably a kind that most humans wouldn't vote for. FDR didn't have enough brains to understand what John Maynard Keynes was talking about, but he is regarded as a great politician.
FDR & Keynes
This is why those Libertarians talking about taking over a state make a certain amount of sense to me, but I find it difficult to imagine a large enough number of them getting together to take over a state. Taking over a large city and influencing a state I could believe. They also don't seem to be saying enough about economics and technology for my tastes.
Vulcans of Terra unite. You have nothing to lose but Ferengi.
psikeyhackr
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Mephistopheles
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Post #18333
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Da Jerm
Junior Spy
Post #18341
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-04 05:11
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| Quote: |
| As for will of the people, people voted in Hitler and Bush. At this point, I really don't trust democracy because in actuality, most people are ignorant dolts who shouldn't have the right to vote in the first place. Most Americans seem to know more about the Simpson's than their own First Amendment rights. |
You have come to the fundamental thought process which destroys democracy. The democracy which elected Hitler (the name escapes me..reich-something i think) did so because they felt democracy had failed them. An unfortunate series of events largely caused by the conflict between the NAZI's and the communist party coupled with the crushing wait of World War One Repairation payments and incredible inflation had torn down the spirit of the German people. This made them suceptible to someone who spoke of hope, of pride, of restoring the nation to it's former glory.
As Queen Amidalla(sp?) once said "The moment we stop believeing democracy can work is when we lose it".
The solution is not to abandon hope, the solution is to harden our resolve and our belief in democracy. We have to educate people, holding on to the knowledge that we are right and in the end must prevail. We have to never forget that 2+2=4.
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| Big Brother wrote: |
| I don't care for tyrants ... especially imaginary ones. |
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psikeyhackr
Inner Party Member
Post #18343
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-04 05:24
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| Politics: Friggin Wacko! |
Country: United States |
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| SarCHASM? |
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You think I was being sarcastic?
A number years ago I was reading:
Mastering The Art of War translated and edited by Thomas Cleary
http://tinyurl.com/78mze
when a peculiar thought struck me,
"The Chinese invented Vulcans 2500 years ago."
However the Chinese versions weren't as neurotic as the American's. My sophomore year in college a Chinese kid joined the fraternity I was in. That was the year the original Kung Fu series started. He had studied Kung Fu growing up in New York. He told me that his Kung Fu master told him that he "would not teach KungFu to Europeans because they turn everything into a sport."
School is often about competing with other students over grades instead of acquiring knowledge. In college I experienced an instructor walk into class the first day saying, "I am only giving two A's and four B's in this class," And I'm sitting there thinking, "He hasn't even taught anything and he's already decided how many of what grades to give." I have found over the years that many people have had instructors do the exact same thing.
Culture is a mind set. A way of thinking that perpetuates itself generation after generation. Our technology has become to complex and dangerous for a culture of stupidity.
So I find this statement somewhat amusing and tounge-in-cheek, but there is an underlying seriousness to it.
 Vulcans of Terra unite. You have nothing to lose but Ferengi.
psikeyhackr
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #18358
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-04 17:18
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| values and principles |
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to conquer first, the Vulcans tribes must become rich first, then enact the plan to power.
After all Vulcans are smarter than Ferengi, they focus on different ideas and values though.
However over the long only those hard core values and principles can withstand the test of time, they can only provide the strength and motivation to carry the people over the troubled waters ahead.
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What is a Democratic Socialist?
It is a Communist who is cowardly
enough to call himself what he's not, for fear of backlash on the Semantics. It is about the "Speed" of the "Revolution".
Like Hitler said "get them persuaded and us elected"
Caveat Emptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Socialism
DO NOT USE BIG BROTHER'S LIBERTARIAN POLICIES AND BELIEFS AGAINST HIS HIMSELF AND HIS FORUM |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #18362
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-04 17:31
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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| Da Jerm wrote: |
| The democracy which elected Hitler (the name escapes me..reich-something i think) |
You are probably thinking of the Reichstag, which was the name of the German parliament. The name you are looking for is the Weimar Republic, though. |
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Da Jerm
Junior Spy
Post #19177
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Posted: Fri 2006-03-10 09:51
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Da Jerm wrote: |
| The democracy which elected Hitler (the name escapes me..reich-something i think) |
You are probably thinking of the Reichstag, which was the name of the German parliament. The name you are looking for is the Weimar Republic, though. |
THANK YOU!
Pathetic to say, but that has been bothering me since I made this post. I never found the time to look it up though. I appriciate the help.
On the subject of Burgertopia: Please, in the name of all things sacred, let them be cheeseburger overlords.
Drzhen: As I often like to say "Apathy, is death." I agree, the world is a depressing place to have to wake up to at the moment. More than at the moment, it has been for a long time. Maybe forever. Perhaps the difference is that those circumstances inspire and motivate me. The more dire the situation, the more need for heros. It sounds trite perhaps, but I think of us as heros. We have to ride in on our white steads and look the king in the face and tell him 'No, this is not the way it's going to be. Not while we still draw breath'. As I said, trite perhaps, but that is the way I see things.
We have a responsibility to the world to work towords that goal. I guess what i'm trying to say is, I know the world sucks, but that is exactly the reason not to become apathetic.
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| Big Brother wrote: |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #19233
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-11 03:39
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| Politics: Technocratism |
Country: Titan |
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| Da Jerm wrote: |
Drzhen: As I often like to say "Apathy, is death." I agree, the world is a depressing place to have to wake up to at the moment. More than at the moment, it has been for a long time. Maybe forever. Perhaps the difference is that those circumstances inspire and motivate me. The more dire the situation, the more need for heros. It sounds trite perhaps, but I think of us as heros. We have to ride in on our white steads and look the king in the face and tell him 'No, this is not the way it's going to be. Not while we still draw breath'. As I said, trite perhaps, but that is the way I see things.
We have a responsibility to the world to work towords that goal. I guess what i'm trying to say is, I know the world sucks, but that is exactly the reason not to become apathetic. |
This is exactly the reason to be apathetic. This world is becoming more and more totalitarian as the years go by, and no one does anything about it. Our leaders have gone apeshit with imperialistic ambitions. And even worse, still, no one cares. Our president was voted in. That alone sums up the stupidity of people. I have no more faith in democracy. Democracy is only as intelligent as the people who vote. And the average voter is a mindless idiot who eats fast food and watches the shit on reality TV at night. I care, but in a sense I don't care. America voted for Bush, so I couldn't give two shits about the people who are complaining now about how much they regret. Yeah, I suppose retards ought to regret the shit they cause. After all, democracy voted for Hitler. I can tout that, and then you could say, "That's just one example, sometimes democracy doesn't always work." The price of failure is too high.
Believe in your democracy. I don't.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #19287
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-11 15:01
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| Democracy is only as intelligent as the people who vote. And the average voter is a mindless idiot who eats fast food and watches the shit on reality TV at night. |
True, but as I see it, this doesn't necessarily prove that democracy is flawed as such. If the people got better education, democracy would work considerably better. |
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-11 18:24
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
This is exactly the reason to be apathetic. This world is becoming more and more totalitarian as the years go by, and no one does anything about it. Our leaders have gone apeshit with imperialistic ambitions. And even worse, still, no one cares. Our president was voted in. That alone sums up the stupidity of people. I have no more faith in democracy. Democracy is only as intelligent as the people who vote. And the average voter is a mindless idiot who eats fast food and watches the shit on reality TV at night. I care, but in a sense I don't care. America voted for Bush, so I couldn't give two shits about the people who are complaining now about how much they regret. Yeah, I suppose retards ought to regret the shit they cause. After all, democracy voted for Hitler. I can tout that, and then you could say, "That's just one example, sometimes democracy doesn't always work." The price of failure is too high.
Believe in your democracy. I don't. |
"Democracy is the worst system , apart from all the others"
I very much doubt we will ever have some ultimate ideal power distribution scheme , thus we can most likely never create a society that will not under any circumstance "elect hitler" . The only question we are seeking to answer is which system makes this least likely , and to me that looks like democracy .
Its worth considering that democracy is actually a negative form in aristotles scale with polity being the positive version. The problem faced with all distributions of power is that the inevitably have the potential to go bad , things going bad in a monarchy or aristocracy is usually far more dire a circumstance and indeed a more common one than with polity.
So overall I'd say your right examples of democracy across the world are pretty awful. Being apathetic about it helps nothing , I don't see a movement away from democracy completely as solving anything so we are forced to work on honing democracy and indeed the electorate to improve our system. Its no quick fix , and theres no catchy slogan behind it but if anyone has a solution like that I do wish they'd speak up.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #19295
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Posted: Sat 2006-03-11 23:04
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Drzhen wrote: |
| Democracy is only as intelligent as the people who vote. And the average voter is a mindless idiot who eats fast food and watches the shit on reality TV at night. |
True, but as I see it, this doesn't necessarily prove that democracy is flawed as such. If the people got better education, democracy would work considerably better. |
Heres how I see it - with a democracy you will at least know that some people will be smart. With, say, Monarchy, you may get a few brilliant leaders and then a mentally ill one. In a democracy theres always a risk you will get a bad leader, but at least you will never get a terrible one.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #19303
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 00:51
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| Politics: Technocratism |
Country: Titan |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
"Democracy is the worst system , apart from all the others"
I very much doubt we will ever have some ultimate ideal power distribution scheme , thus we can most likely never create a society that will not under any circumstance "elect hitler" . The only question we are seeking to answer is which system makes this least likely , and to me that looks like democracy .
Its worth considering that democracy is actually a negative form in aristotles scale with polity being the positive version. The problem faced with all distributions of power is that the inevitably have the potential to go bad , things going bad in a monarchy or aristocracy is usually far more dire a circumstance and indeed a more common one than with polity.
So overall I'd say your right examples of democracy across the world are pretty awful. Being apathetic about it helps nothing , I don't see a movement away from democracy completely as solving anything so we are forced to work on honing democracy and indeed the electorate to improve our system. Its no quick fix , and theres no catchy slogan behind it but if anyone has a solution like that I do wish they'd speak up. |
In an idealistic way, I'm a technocrat. A society run, at the highest levels, by computers or technical scientists would be efficient. I don't deny that there would be flaws, errors, loopholes, etc. It's just, in my ideal world, the people running the government are emotionless as compared to the emotional, power-hungry dictators of today. But it's just a fantasy, for now. Until we create machines with the ability to think, I'll still feel nihilistic about the world.
I do have strong opinions. But in some ways, I'm very much a pure nihilist. Society is just shit. People are shit. And I couldn't care less. Sounds harsh, but if you take a look around, people aren't very nice. People aren't very fair or just. It's a shitty picture.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #19304
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 00:58
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| Politics: Technocratism |
Country: Titan |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| True, but as I see it, this doesn't necessarily prove that democracy is flawed as such. If the people got better education, democracy would work considerably better. |
That is a true statement that in a democracy, the smarter the populace is, the smarter they'll be when it comes time to vote for a smart candidate. Unfortunately, America is just such a hopeless place. My grandparents, as an example, are Lutherans. They wouldn't have one problem with making the Bible our new Constitution. Many Americans are the same way. In fact, a recent poll showed that more Americans knew about the Simpsons than their own First Amendment rights.
We have a third-world education system. If the people were educated, like people in Europe, I might be less nihilistic about American democracy. But it won't happen. People here are so damned clueless it isn't even funny. And they honestly believe we're the best country in the world!
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #19305
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 00:59
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| Politics: Technocratism |
Country: Titan |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Heres how I see it - with a democracy you will at least know that some people will be smart. With, say, Monarchy, you may get a few brilliant leaders and then a mentally ill one. In a democracy theres always a risk you will get a bad leader, but at least you will never get a terrible one. |
I hate having to repeat myself, but democracy elected Hitler. In a democracy, there's a risk of bad leaders, like Bush, and terrible ones, like Hitler. Sorry to have to repeat myself like that, but it's how I feel.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #19392
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 18:18
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Heres how I see it - with a democracy you will at least know that some people will be smart. With, say, Monarchy, you may get a few brilliant leaders and then a mentally ill one. In a democracy theres always a risk you will get a bad leader, but at least you will never get a terrible one. |
Even more importantly, you can remove a bad leader. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #19395
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 18:21
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| That is a true statement that in a democracy, the smarter the populace is, the smarter they'll be when it comes time to vote for a smart candidate. Unfortunately, America is just such a hopeless place. My grandparents, as an example, are Lutherans. They wouldn't have one problem with making the Bible our new Constitution. Many Americans are the same way. In fact, a recent poll showed that more Americans knew about the Simpsons than their own First Amendment rights. |
We have our fair share of proles too. I honestly think that education is the key, though. In many ways, I consider quality education, perhaps especially training of critical thinking, to be the first and most important step towards a better society.
| Drzhen wrote: |
| We have a third-world education system. If the people were educated, like people in Europe, I might be less nihilistic about American democracy. But it won't happen. People here are so damned clueless it isn't even funny. And they honestly believe we're the best country in the world! |
Well, be careful to overestimate European education. It's good in some countries, less good in others. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #19398
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 18:35
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Heres how I see it - with a democracy you will at least know that some people will be smart. With, say, Monarchy, you may get a few brilliant leaders and then a mentally ill one. In a democracy theres always a risk you will get a bad leader, but at least you will never get a terrible one. |
I hate having to repeat myself, but democracy elected Hitler. In a democracy, there's a risk of bad leaders, like Bush, and terrible ones, like Hitler. Sorry to have to repeat myself like that, but it's how I feel. |
You cannot consider yourself enlightened and still think that democracy elected Hitler. I suggest you read up on the subject before making inaccurate statements.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #19399
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 18:36
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Heres how I see it - with a democracy you will at least know that some people will be smart. With, say, Monarchy, you may get a few brilliant leaders and then a mentally ill one. In a democracy theres always a risk you will get a bad leader, but at least you will never get a terrible one. |
Even more importantly, you can remove a bad leader. |
In theory...
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
George Santayana |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #19401
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 20:40
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Heres how I see it - with a democracy you will at least know that some people will be smart. With, say, Monarchy, you may get a few brilliant leaders and then a mentally ill one. In a democracy theres always a risk you will get a bad leader, but at least you will never get a terrible one. |
Even more importantly, you can remove a bad leader. |
In theory... |
If the voters are educated enough and if your argumentation is good enough, you can. As the saying goes: In a democracy the people get what the people deserves. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #19406
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 21:10
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| IO wrote: |
| If the voters are educated enough and if your argumentation is good enough, you can. As the saying goes: In a democracy the people get what the people deserves. |
Unfortunately, as long as democracy remains a republic the people will never be as educated as they should be.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #19408
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 21:16
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Unfortunately, as long as democracy remains a republic the people will never be as educated as they should be. |
Agreed. That's why I agitate that education and democratisation must go hand in hand and evolve in parallell. |
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Zoon
Minister of Truth
Post #19415
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 21:33
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Russia |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| Gold Rust wrote: |
| Unfortunately, as long as democracy remains a republic the people will never be as educated as they should be. |
Agreed. That's why I agitate that education and democratisation must go hand in hand and evolve in parallell. |
I agree, education is mandatory. However, I think the US needs to revaluate its education system - its a mess. Though I don't have any children myself, my older sister does and I have seen up close the type of propaganda they feed children in our schools - its sickening.
I think there should be a required course introduced into schools - a course called, Understanding Politics, that should be taught starting in 6th grade and up through high school, and would focus on teaching the students how to see through biased material, propaganda, and to see what motivates the government. If everyone in America had taken classes like that, I think the country would be a better place by far.
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To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the blood.
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Mephistopheles
Filthy Animal
Post #19418
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 21:39
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| Politics: Technocratism |
Country: Titan |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
We have our fair share of proles too. I honestly think that education is the key, though. In many ways, I consider quality education, perhaps especially training of critical thinking, to be the first and most important step towards a better society.
Well, be careful to overestimate European education. It's good in some countries, less good in others. |
I don't say that Europe is perfect, but I say that in Western European education systems, I'd rather send my child there than to an American school, because at least I'd know that they'd learn more than they would here.
Education is the most important aspect of society. If I were leader of my country, I'd immediately switch the trillions of dollars in funding from warfare to education. That would do wonders for American collective intellect.
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Yippykiaye motherfucker. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #19420
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 21:43
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| Perhaps you forgot the time when Germany, year 1933, democracy elected Hitler. Is that an inaccurate statement? Or do you consider it inaccurate because of the stress the Germans were under? Even so, they voted for him, i.e. democracy elected Hitler. |
Quite a few Germans voted for the NSDAP, but they had to exploit technical weaknesses in the German constitution to get a majority in the Reichstag.
| From Wikipedia |
The 9th and last German federal election of the Weimar Republic was held on March 5, 1933, and was significant in that it was the last election to be held in Germany before World War II. Due to the success of the Nazi Party in the poll, its leader, and Chancellor of Germany, Adolf Hitler was able to pass the Enabling Act, which effectively gave him the power of a dictator.
The election took place shortly after the Reichstag fire, in which the German parliament was set alight, allegedly by a Dutch Communist, Marinus van der Lubbe. This event had the joint effect of lowering the popularity of the KPD, and enabling Hitler to persuade President Hindenberg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree. This emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of the leaders of the KPD shortly before the election, further deriding the Communists and consolidating the position of the Nazis. Hence, the fire is widely believed to have had a major effect on the outcome of the election.
However, despite achieving a much better result than in the November 1932 election, the Nazis did not do as well as Hitler had hoped, polling 43.9%, rather than the 50+% that he had expected. Therefore, he was forced to maintain his coalition with the Nationalist DNVP to control a majority. In addition to this, Hitler needed a two-thirds majority to pass the Enabling Act (a law which allowed him to pass laws without consulting the Reichstag), which he gained by persuading the Centre Party to vote with him. The bill was passed on March 23 and though it was only meant to be effective for four years, it was formally prolonged twice. The powers gained from the bill allowed the KPD and SPD to be outlawed, and firmly established Germany as a dictatorship. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #19421
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Posted: Sun 2006-03-12 21:45
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| Politics: Democratic Socialist |
Country: Sweden |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Drzhen wrote: |
| Education is the most important aspect of society. If I were leader of my country, I'd immediately switch the trillions of dollars in funding from warfare to education. That would do wonders for American collective intellect. |
I can't possibly agree more. |
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