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Tristan
Committee Leader
Post #57677
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Posted: Thu 2008-11-06 09:17
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| Politics: Republican (U.S. Conservative) |
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| Why property is important in America (and why you hate it) |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I was thinking about the world's response to our elections in the US, and what makes conservatism--the old American values--so reprehensible to the rest of the world. The very biggest rifts, I think, lie not in Iraq or some other media creation, but in the concept of property. "Property" is a gigantic subject so this is just a miniature essay meant to try and hash the issue with Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is the explanation. I'll kick this off with a mixed bag of questions about property in America:
- Why are we the only developed country that has serious mortality--thousands of murders annually--over property and money disputes?
- Why does a top marginal tax rate of 70% work great in Sweden, but when the US had that rate, we devised the "stagflation" figure to describe the misery?
- Why is Defense the only effective government-run industry in the US; why do all the state's social services fail?
- Why has the US been alone disavowing lower work hours since the Great Depression?
- Why do inventors and investors turn to US markets if they do not trust their own country to safeguard their source of income? Why is the US "safe enough" to be the first stop for the typical speculator who has overcome home bias and is looking abroad for money-making risks?
- Why did the US originate an inordinate share of macro-inventions in its history?
- Why did the ideal behind the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments (the principle that government cannot violate property) come to reality in this country, and nowhere else first? How did this happen even while we still held human slaves? ...and perhaps even partly because we held people as property?
Normally flowery rhetoric is a waste of time. But here, the reason I phrased these thinly-veiled factoids as questions is that I think they share the same answer. American notions of property alienate us from our fine mates in the OECD. We have a local "ownership complex" that frustrates imported collectivist ideas. Instances of collectivism, of shared property and community spirit in the US, are practically defined by their shoddy quality. They are terrible. Large, involved city governments are corrupt, public education is a disaster, and "wealth redistribution" is sneered at out-of-hand even by many poor people. Americans' devotion to property is so fierce and ingrained that property is basically on par with human life. There's a straightforward logic in that which goes: no point in having life if you can't have its benefits.
From here on I'm going to speculate on the cause. I believe that the main cause for our obsession with property is our history as immigrants, the nature of the immigrants who come here (as opposed to the type who stays behind), and the resulting mixture of productive, but somewhat lonely, people. During the potato famine, Irish arrived in droves for reasons all-too-familiar: they could rake in a whopping 80 cents a day on unskilled labor, as opposed to 12 at home. And for any buff they could manage on this pay, they were willing to do the jobs that Americans wouldn't do, like dig canals. Essentially, opportunists poured into America and content nationals stayed behind. Perhaps the only thing that allowed for workable relationships between these varied foreign opportunists was their common reason for being there: acquisition of property. Thus, land and money ascended above the Old World's mechanisms of birthright and tradition. Tradition gets a bad rap but it carries important kernels of collectivism and a route to happiness. Americans do not have access to this route. We cannot take advantage of tradition in the way that, say, a 40,000-year-old aboriginal tribe can. Or people in an old barrio in Seville. Or even Londoners. Despite these apparent shortcomings we have as a culture, I believe it to be the only way we could work peaceably and effectively. Americans, unlike Swedes, do not have the advantage of homogeny. The "common good" is nebulous in a nation of immigrants, and the advantages of property are clear. If you take a nation of immigrants and let their relations play along the individualist lines of property and earned privileges, you get a strange, though functional, United States. If you take a nation of immigrants and let them sort out their differences along the collectivist lines of birthright and tradition, you get the Gaza Strip.
I think I'd like to end this with an appeal to foreign left-leaners not to hate US conservatism, particularly on these bases of private property and individualism. Consider it an act of tolerance, if nothing else, for a foreign culture. Please do not get emotionally attached to our demise as such. It would save me a lot of energy, and you a lot of frustration. |
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Major General Despair
Junior Spy
Post #57678
Joined: 05 Nov 2008
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Posted: Thu 2008-11-06 18:15
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| Politics: Silly Party |
Country: Scotland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Thank you, for making my country feel morally superior for not having such a huge issue about property. Instead we have a problem if strangers knock over our pints (beer for all you newspeaking americans). Judging by Glasgow (Scotland's largest city), we appear to knife strangers at first opportunity. Glasgow has had religious wars longer than the middle east. |
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Tristan
Committee Leader
Post #57679
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Posted: Thu 2008-11-06 20:17
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| Politics: Republican (U.S. Conservative) |
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| Glasgow : Edinburgh :: Dallas : Houston |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| I've never been to Glasgow, but perhaps it is a more brutal place than Edinburgh, where the rectitude of one's pint does not necessary proclaim the rectitude of one's morality to strangers. I'm happy that Americans are more obsessed with property than entitlements and other symbols, so don't think I'm an apologist and trying to make you feel good. I think that for all its faults, money prescribes the best possible code of conduct by which strangers can interact. The, uh, "Glasgow alternative," a sudden show of force, stinks of a warrior code which tempts people in the absence of money. |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #57683
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Posted: Fri 2008-11-07 00:14
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| Politics: Oligarchical Collectivist |
Country: United States |
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| Why property is important in America whatta laugh-in! |
Post Rating: 2.8/4 (5 votes cast) |
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| Tristan wrote: |
I was thinking about the world's response to our elections in the US, and what makes conservatism--the old American values--so reprehensible to the rest of the world.
The very biggest rifts, I think, lie not in Iraq or some other media creation, but in the concept of property.
"Property" is a gigantic subject so this is just a miniature essay meant to try and hash the issue with Occam's Razor.
The simplest explanation is the explanation. I'll kick this off with a mixed bag of questions about property in America:
- Why are we the only developed country that has serious mortality--thousands of murders annually--over property and money disputes? =car accidents/lung cancer=
- Why does a top marginal tax rate of 70% work great in Sweden, but when the US had that rate, we devised the "stagflation" figure to describe the misery?
- Why is Defense the only effective government-run industry in the US; why do all the state's social services fail?
- Why has the US been alone disavowing lower work hours since the Great Depression?
- Why do inventors and investors turn to US markets if they do not trust their own country to safeguard their source of income? Why is the US "safe enough" to be the first stop for the typical speculator who has overcome home bias and is looking abroad for money-making risks?
- Why did the US originate an inordinate share of macro-inventions in its history?
- Why did the ideal behind the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments (the principle that government cannot violate property) come to reality in this country, and nowhere else first?
How did this happen even while we still held human slaves? ...and perhaps even partly because we held people as property?
Normally flowery rhetoric is a waste of time. But here, the reason I phrased these thinly-veiled factoids as questions is that I think they share the same answer. American notions of property alienate us from our fine mates in the OECD.
We have a local "ownership complex" that frustrates imported collectivist ideas.
Instances of collectivism, of shared property and community spirit in the US, are practically defined by their shoddy quality.
They are terrible.
Large, involved city governments are corrupt, public education is a disaster, and "wealth redistribution" is sneered at out-of-hand even by many poor people.
Americans' devotion to property is so fierce and ingrained that property is basically on par with human life.
There's a straightforward logic in that which goes: no point in having life if you can't have its benefits.
From here on I'm going to speculate on the cause. I believe that the main cause for our obsession with property is our history as immigrants, the nature of the immigrants who come here (as opposed to the type who stays behind), and the resulting mixture of productive, but somewhat lonely, people.
During the potato famine, Irish arrived in droves for reasons all-too-familiar: they could rake in a whopping 80 cents a day on unskilled labor, as opposed to 12 at home.
And for any buff they could manage on this pay,they were willing to do the jobs that Americans wouldn't do, like dig canals.
Essentially, opportunists poured into America and content nationals stayed behind. Perhaps the only thing that allowed for workable relationships between these varied foreign opportunists was their common reason for being there: acquisition of property. Thus, land and money ascended above the Old World's mechanisms of birthright and tradition.
Tradition gets a bad rap but it carries important kernels of collectivism and a route to happiness. Americans do not have access to this route. We cannot take advantage of tradition in the way that, say, a 40,000-year-old aboriginal tribe can.
Or people in an old barrio in Seville. Or even Londoners. Despite these apparent shortcomings we have as a culture, I believe it to be the only way we could work peaceably and effectively. Americans, unlike Swedes, do not have the advantage of homogeny.
The "common good" is nebulous in a nation of immigrants, and the advantages of property are clear.
If you take a nation of immigrants and let their relations play along the individualist lines of property and earned privileges, you get a strange, though functional, United States. If you take a nation of immigrants and let them sort out their differences along the collectivist lines of birthright and tradition, you get the Gaza Strip.
I think I'd like to end this with an appeal to foreign left-leaners not to hate US conservatism, particularly on these bases of private property and individualism.
Consider it an act of tolerance, if nothing else, for a foreign culture.
Please do not get emotionally attached to our demise as such. It would save me a lot of energy, and you a lot of frustration. |
Fancy troll, the latest gimmick going on in Facebook is to impeach Obama for being a commie/socialist. Great yet cliched glittering generality straight out of the Propaganda Textbook "the old American values", bwahahahaah!  Tristan do you think the teenyboppers will bait in? So the Street Wisdom has it Tristan that Bush and his henchmen in the Republican Party are a bunch of practical and consistent fuckups who are also the most unpopular sons of bitches in History, account for Ex-Conservatives and rednecks voting for Obama.
PS: Arabs and Jews in the M.E. haven't heard of skyscrapers, and should we care as long as Israel is a client state for Republican Party-funding Armaments industries?
So much for land, 'property' and distribution of national income. I love it when Tristan 'bundles' and confuses terminologies by 'accident', when 'deconstructed' he apologizes for misleading the debate with Red Herrings LOL 
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #57684
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 4292
Total Words: 709,073
Average words per post: 165.21
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Posted: Fri 2008-11-07 00:19
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| Politics: Oligarchical Collectivist |
Country: United States |
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| Re: Why property is important in America (and why you hate |
Post Rating: 2.8/4 (5 votes cast) |
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| Tristan wrote: |
I was thinking about the world's response to our elections in the US, and what makes conservatism--the old American values--so reprehensible to the rest of the world. The very biggest rifts, I think, lie not in Iraq or some other media creation, but in the concept of property. "Property" is a gigantic subject so this is just a miniature essay meant to try and hash the issue with Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is the explanation. I'll kick this off with a mixed bag of questions about property in America:
- Why are we the only developed country that has serious mortality--thousands of murders annually--over property and money disputes?
- Why does a top marginal tax rate of 70% work great in Sweden, but when the US had that rate, we devised the "stagflation" figure to describe the misery?
- Why is Defense the only effective government-run industry in the US; why do all the state's social services fail?
- Why has the US been alone disavowing lower work hours since the Great Depression?
- Why do inventors and investors turn to US markets if they do not trust their own country to safeguard their source of income? Why is the US "safe enough" to be the first stop for the typical speculator who has overcome home bias and is looking abroad for money-making risks?
- Why did the US originate an inordinate share of macro-inventions in its history?
- Why did the ideal behind the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments (the principle that government cannot violate property) come to reality in this country, and nowhere else first? How did this happen even while we still held human slaves? ...and perhaps even partly because we held people as property?
Normally flowery rhetoric is a waste of time. But here, the reason I phrased these thinly-veiled factoids as questions is that I think they share the same answer. American notions of property alienate us from our fine mates in the OECD. We have a local "ownership complex" that frustrates imported collectivist ideas. Instances of collectivism, of shared property and community spirit in the US, are practically defined by their shoddy quality. They are terrible. Large, involved city governments are corrupt, public education is a disaster, and "wealth redistribution" is sneered at out-of-hand even by many poor people. Americans' devotion to property is so fierce and ingrained that property is basically on par with human life. There's a straightforward logic in that which goes: no point in having life if you can't have its benefits.
From here on I'm going to speculate on the cause. I believe that the main cause for our obsession with property is our history as immigrants, the nature of the immigrants who come here (as opposed to the type who stays behind), and the resulting mixture of productive, but somewhat lonely, people. During the potato famine, Irish arrived in droves for reasons all-too-familiar: they could rake in a whopping 80 cents a day on unskilled labor, as opposed to 12 at home. And for any buff they could manage on this pay, they were willing to do the jobs that Americans wouldn't do, like dig canals. Essentially, opportunists poured into America and content nationals stayed behind. Perhaps the only thing that allowed for workable relationships between these varied foreign opportunists was their common reason for being there: acquisition of property. Thus, land and money ascended above the Old World's mechanisms of birthright and tradition. Tradition gets a bad rap but it carries important kernels of collectivism and a route to happiness. Americans do not have access to this route. We cannot take advantage of tradition in the way that, say, a 40,000-year-old aboriginal tribe can. Or people in an old barrio in Seville. Or even Londoners. Despite these apparent shortcomings we have as a culture, I believe it to be the only way we could work peaceably and effectively. Americans, unlike Swedes, do not have the advantage of homogeny. The "common good" is nebulous in a nation of immigrants, and the advantages of property are clear. If you take a nation of immigrants and let their relations play along the individualist lines of property and earned privileges, you get a strange, though functional, United States. If you take a nation of immigrants and let them sort out their differences along the collectivist lines of birthright and tradition, you get the Gaza Strip.
I think I'd like to end this with an appeal to foreign left-leaners not to hate US conservatism, particularly on these bases of private property and individualism. Consider it an act of tolerance, if nothing else, for a foreign culture. Please do not get emotionally attached to our demise as such. It would save me a lot of energy, and you a lot of frustration. |
Hate to break your NS Forum thread wank but Bush and his mickey mouse Neo-conservative little Republicans last month voted to NATIONALIZE THE US BANKING SYSTEM, as a solution to their deregulatory gross fuckup of the US Economy.
Need I say more about the Republicans, Bush being more in line with Communism, Lenin and Stalin (love those joy camps in Guantanamo Bay by the way)
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psikeyhackr
Inner Party Member
Post #57696
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 820
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Average words per post: 126.89
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Posted: Sat 2008-11-08 01:36
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| Politics: Friggin Wacko! |
Country: United States |
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| Huh? |
Post Rating: 1.0/4 (3 votes cast) |
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Are you talking about hating property or hating America?
Control of the property is the result of a little bit of genocide.
Personally I find it funny that there is a Voyager episode that said, "the NAZIs were the Borg of their day."
We are Euroborg.
You will be assimilated.
Resistance is Futile!
psik
PS - Of course the shoe fits for Australia and New Zealand also.
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Physics - can't - LIE! |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #57697
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 4292
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Posted: Sat 2008-11-08 05:07
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| Politics: Oligarchical Collectivist |
Country: United States |
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| Most Incompetent President in US History Dubya |
Post Rating: 3.3/4 (4 votes cast) |
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| psikeyhackr wrote: |
Are you talking about hating property or hating America?
Control of the property is the result of a little bit of genocide.
Personally I find it funny that there is a Voyager episode that said, "the NAZIs were the Borg of their day."
We are Euroborg.
You will be assimilated.
Resistance is Futile!
psik
PS - Of course the shoe fits for Australia and New Zealand also. |
"What do you HATE America or Property*?" That's a double-bind from Tristan Psy, he's rather regular with it to throw off arguments off-track "but it wasn't what I meant I meant I was mad....at XYZ", its purpose is to derail blogging and opinios in the internet blogosphere, are you familiar with internet brigades Psy? So tick that one off the list along with "Mad/Outraged Republican at Lefties, anti-clericals et cetera".
Cheer up we got a new team and as the Law of Averages have it, we can only do better.
To put it succintly, even a retarded monkey can do a better job than ex- President Dubya.
In other words the ideological commitment to the mishmash of political, economic and religious vested interests has perhaps backfired and given a potentially fatal blow to the said motley crew that makes up the Republican Party; namely the Theocratic Christian Right, Military-Industrialists and block of associated Imperialists, Racists, Neo-nazis,Separatists/Segregationists, Gun-nut would-be terrorists and Banking interests... and yes geography-challenged dimwits (hey it isn't algebra/calculus!).
* Public Relations a la Karl Rove "patriots" are militarists and neo-cons as the baseline American voter) and thus defining Dissent as Unpatriotic and anti-american, neat Public Relations 101 at College.
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #57701
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 3002
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Posted: Sat 2008-11-08 19:02
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Re: Why property is important in America whatta laugh-in! |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| carldiesturmer wrote: |
Fancy troll, the latest gimmick going on in Facebook is to impeach Obama for being a commie/socialist.
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Actually, Obama won because he ran as a conservative. And Americans elected him because they are all conservatives too. That's what I learned while watching Fox News on Election night. I also learned that Carl Rove likes cookies baked into the shape of the FoxNews logo. Seriously.
After about 10 seconds of that crap, I switched over to MSNBC, which was playing victorious music while displaying video of hordes of happy little proles celebrating Obama's glorious victory.
And then I remembered why I don't watch TV anymore, and promptly switched the telescreen off.
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"It is often argued that religion is valuable because it makes men good, but even if this were true it would not be a proof that religion is true. That would be an extension of pragmatism beyond endurance. Santa Claus makes children good in precisely the same way, and yet no one would argue seriously that the fact proves his existence. The defense of religion is full of such logical imbecilities." - H. L. Mencken
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #57702
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Posts: 4292
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Posted: Sat 2008-11-08 20:33
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| Politics: Oligarchical Collectivist |
Country: United States |
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| Fox News:kiss republican arse or else... |
Post Rating: 3.3/4 (4 votes cast) |
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| Big Brother wrote: |
| carldiesturmer wrote: |
Fancy troll, the latest gimmick going on in Facebook is to impeach Obama for being a commie/socialist.
|
Actually, Obama won because he ran as a conservative. And Americans elected him because they are all conservatives too. That's what I learned while watching Fox News on Election night. I also learned that Karl Rove likes cookies baked into the shape of the FoxNews logo. Seriously.
After about 10 seconds of that crap, I switched over to MSNBC, which was playing victorious music while displaying video of hordes of happy little proles celebrating Obama's glorious victory.
And then I remembered why I don't watch TV anymore, and promptly switched the telescreen off. |
Who would have an issue with African-Americans celebrating on the streets? 99% of news content? Oh well....Dixieland .....
More seriously though, it is the Conglomerate, hate TV? I understand why you think like that, its owners aim at the lowest common demographic denominator for market segmentation and profit, you see the Mass Media is in the business of selling advertising space for its clients none other Big Brother.
This is the case study:
Good angle, I remember writing a piece on the relationship
of Fox News and Bush Admin. News Corp was counting on a lifting of the cross-media ownership laws (diversity, competition, things dreaded by monopolist Capitalists and loved by ideological Capitalist little republicans) in the next electoral cycle to change cross-media ownership laws next time it comes up for review by the FCC, so Fox News had to really lick some serious Republican Cowboy Boots and dispense with objective reporting altogether*. Shame because Democrats did not bother appearing in Fox this time to be spun in the debate, next Fox News changes spin so it is not seen backing a Loser/Non-Hopper in blatant news spinning, crap no candidates debates equals no media content for Fox News.
Big Brother here is your News Corp headline: " Obama the Clayton Conservative/Liberal Lite safe for Republican taste."
You see Big Brother if News Corp if it is not merging and acquiring more media assets the debt-laden conglomerate will implode through falling cash flows leading to its dismemberment by the lending banks and hence its political partisanism to canvass political votes in Congress.
Electoral Post-Mortem:
News Corp now has to kiss Obama Libbie arse to get away with its restrictive Freedom of the Press conglomerate, is gonna hurt profits though.
You see I did not need to write 10 pages of text to explain the point.
*Fox News get outfoxed in the scam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outfoxed:_Rupert_Murdoch%27s_War_on_Journalism
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RYE:VIRGIN DUNCE
"if you believe in reality please put this in your signature "LY" as the qualified weasel worded statement for extra vagueness" |
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Tristan
Committee Leader
Post #57703
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
Total Words: 124,012
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Posted: Sun 2008-11-09 15:37
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| Politics: Republican (U.S. Conservative) |
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| Re: Huh? |
Post Rating: 4.0/4 (3 votes cast) |
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| psikeyhackr wrote: |
Are you talking about hating property or hating America?
Control of the property is the result of a little bit of genocide.
Personally I find it funny that there is a Voyager episode that said, "the NAZIs were the Borg of their day."
We are Euroborg.
You will be assimilated.
Resistance is Futile!
psik
PS - Of course the shoe fits for Australia and New Zealand also. |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #57704
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psikeyhackr
Inner Party Member
Post #57766
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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Posted: Sun 2008-11-16 14:30
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| Politics: Friggin Wacko! |
Country: United States |
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Post Rating: 2.0/4 (3 votes cast) |
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Ever hear of Georgism?
He was a little later than Marx, writing at the time Marx died.
http://www.henrygeorge.org/pcontents.htm
There is an organization in the US that has been teaching his ideas for years. I am taking their course. It's real cheap. I was supposed to go see a movies about Thomas Paine yesterday but forgot. Anyway I don't see how they have any practical plan for transitioning to his system and George seems kind of obsolete in relation to technology to me. I don't see how anyone living 130 years ago could envision the effect of technology on society and the economy.
But regardless of the technology there is no escape from land as a factor in the economy. We have to live on it and food must be grown and raised on it. So every society must have some system for controlling its use. But if you look at world history for the last 600 years the control of land and the effect of changing who was doing the controlling makes comparison of Europeans to the Borg of Star Trek remarkably easy. 
psik
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Tristan
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Posted: Tue 2008-11-25 03:05
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| Politics: Republican (U.S. Conservative) |
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| Forgive me my incredulity psik, but I do know from previous discussions with you that you attribute everything from the Big Bang to the breakfast cereal you chose this morning to mass psychology. Clearly, the numberless quarrels of various landed European factions are the very picture of a cold, perfected hivemind. |
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psikeyhackr
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Post #58739
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Posted: Fri 2009-03-13 21:31
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| Politics: Friggin Wacko! |
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| Quote: |
| Forgive me my incredulity psik, but I do know from previous discussions with you that you attribute everything from the Big Bang to the breakfast cereal you chose this morning to mass psychology. |
When did I attribute the Big Bang to mass psychology?
What mass would there have been to have a psychology at the time?
Now breakfast cereal is a whole nuther story. I used to watch saturday morning television. I saw enough cereal commercials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_Packard
psik
PS - not sure how I missed this thread for so long.
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carldiesturmer
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Posted: Fri 2009-03-13 23:19
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| Politics: Oligarchical Collectivist |
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| Tristan wrote: |
| Forgive me my incredulity psik, but I do know from previous discussions with you that you attribute everything from the Big Bang to the breakfast cereal you chose this morning to mass psychology. Clearly, the numberless quarrels of various landed European factions are the very picture of a cold, perfected hivemind. |
Try changing the topic (reframe) silly dunce!
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