Fahrenheit 911

APCP · Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 18:22

What is wrong with guns? More guns, less crime, that's the truth.

The U.S. of A. is number one in crime. < link

But...

The UK has more crime per capita than the U.S. of A. < link

The saying "More guns, less crime." is true.
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Donnchadh Macleod · Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 18:31

Come on! If you outlaw guns only violent crooks will have guns. On the other hand, if you go into a bank or a store to rob it and you know that every other person around you has a gun, you just might think twice. I'm already peaved over the fact that it's against the law to cary a sword in publick. I love swords and wont the right to have one with me every were I go. Mad

Scratch that, if you outlaw guns only Outlaws and Patriots will have guns. As you all know you can't spell Patriot without riot and riots are fun! Shocked

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oBrien · Posted: Fri 2004-07-02 01:25

guess we got on the subject of guns and gun control, eh? guess that sort of thing is inevitable in a thread involving Michael Moore.

A Priori · Posted: Fri 2004-07-02 01:33

oBrien · Posted: Fri 2004-07-02 03:54

sorry about the confrontational and personally insulting tone to my last post, Capitalist Pride, and everyone else: i'm down to only one cigarette a day, so i tend to start feeling extremely antagonistic by the late afternoon. i'll make a concerted effort to keep it civilized: many a thread have been ruined by flame-fests.
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oBrien · Posted: Sat 2004-07-03 19:39

to bring us back on topic here, here is a synopsized report issued by the Institute for Policy Studies on the costs of the war in Iraq, released June 24, 2004:

Lt. Vanish · Posted: Sun 2004-07-04 02:57

Hey, I label myself as a "liberal" or a "Democratic-Socialist" but this is exactly why I support everyone's right to bear arms and detest any "gun-control" efforts just as much as I detest the "usual" supporters which usually have no problem stampeding over the rest of my God-given liberties and freedoms.

Now if we can get someone like me who fervently believes in all the amendments in the Bill of Rights, not just the First or Second. We need someone who is in the ACLU and the NRA...the only people that come to mind are Ron Paul of Texas and James Trafficant of Ohio. Of course, Trafficant was destroyed because he dared to stand up to the establishment.

Anyone who wishes to arm themselves would be free to do so. Anyone who wished to have consensual sex with an adult should be free to do so. Anyone who wishes to protest or belong to an advocacy group should be free to do so without government intrusion. Just as it's wrong to catalogue and keep a database of guns, it's also wrong to do so with human beings. Power and authority is never a means, it is an end. The natural conclusion of authoritarian police-state powers such as those granted (or proposed) akin to the Patriot Act would come down to gun registration. You cannot believe in the Second and not fight for the First with your life, nor the opposite. The First protects the Second, and vice-versa. If you let the government impose on any right any bit, it will grow until there are no more rights.

Lt. Vanish · Posted: Sun 2004-07-04 03:05

Again, I thought this post was about Fahrenheit 911, not Bowling for Columbine. F911 denounces Bush and his neocon pimps, (whom the great majority of us detest anyway), so what gives? I'll use any ammunition against them that I can get.

Moore isn't the first to denounce them and he won't be the last. Iacoka [don't know or care how to spell his name], Reagan Jr., and a few Navy Admirals (whose names I can't recall because I don't consider them as important as the first two), have recently denounced Bush and his tyrannical dynasty. We do this ourselves (most of us) every day in this forum.

Just add Moore to the ever-growing list of Thought-Criminals (along with our own names), and be done with it!
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James · Posted: Mon 2004-07-12 04:25

Let's look at the facts here:

Whether you agree with Moore or not, his movies have little in the way of objective fact in them, and are pretty much pure propaganda. Placing them under the banner of entertainment, and not documentary.

How are the news anchors any better? They are better looking... And they cost less... That's pretty much it.
Either I can watch propaganda from some good looking people for free, or I can pay $9 to watch a fat, ugly man give me just about the same propaganda. Or the secret third option: watch something that doesn't pretend to be factual, and exists to entertain honestly.

Or I could read, but I'm illiterate.
The bottom line: Moore is propaganda, and he isn't even very good propaganda, waste your time on something better, like I plan to.
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Big Brother · Posted: Mon 2004-07-12 04:54

What exactly does M&M get wrong in F911? I haven't seen it yet, and I haven't really heard anybody talk about any specific "lie" in his film.

The only thing I've heard is that in the sequence where he tries to get congressman to sign up their kids for military service in Iraq, one of the congressmen replied that his Nephew was in the service --- but M&M didn't include that in his film.

I don't know if that counts as a "Lie". In general, the point he was trying to prove was correct --- The wealthy seem fairly adept at staying out of the service. This isn't universal, but there is a strong grain of truth to the fact that politicians and other people in power can pull string to keep their kids "safe" (Ahem - GW - Ahem)

And in general, M&M was correct -- none of the congressman he interviewed had kids in the military (A nephew may be close – but that’s not what M&M was asking.)

"Politicians hide themselves away. They only started the war. Why should they go out into a fight?... They leave that role to the poor." - Black Sabbath, "War Pigs"

So yes, it is a slightly slanted view --- Propaganda --- but is it really all a "bunch of lies"? I'm going to have a little bit of free time from work this week, so I plan on finding out for myself soon. I'm curious to see exactly what he is "lying" about in F911.

APCP · Posted: Mon 2004-07-12 21:41

Lt. Vanish · Posted: Mon 2004-07-12 21:52

For the most part, I found it truthful. He did say that only one Congressman had a son in the military, and that man voted against the war with Iraq. This is not excluded from the movie because he never asked him. In fact, Moore said "only one" man in Congress had any kids in the service.

One thing he gets wrong is that Bush took those Saudis out of the country on the 13th. Richard Clarke did that, and said he has no regrets. He did it because he has had to evacuate people from foreign countries before since he knows what danger they would have been in. He also told the FBI to question them or take statements if they wished, which they didn't. The FBI signed-off on all of them. This guy has 49 siblings, they are all probably innocent. Even if they weren't, Bin Laden and Al-Quaeda are no longer a threat. There are so many splinter groups now after the Abu Garhib and other atrocities in Iraq that new terrorist groups have sprung up and there are now twice the number of terrorist attacks in only three years.

Anyone ever see the movie The Battle of Algiers? Well, this is what Richard Clarke spoke of when he talked about the irrelevance of all those people. He says there are so many things that the Bush Administration has screwed up that you shouldn't have to make up stories.

Also, he uses some footage from the Gulf War, which is fine, because it shows how many people even then hated the other Bush.

What the movie does say that is true are the links of the Saudis to the Carlyle Group, how all these Fortune 500 companies supported this war because of all the money they'd make from it, and how Prince Bandar was invited to the White House on the 12th for a State dinner. Ol' George H. W. Bush has since visited Saudi Arabia to visit the royal family, and it is true that the Saudi's give assloads of cash to Bush and his campaign, and he invited the Taliban over to thank them for their support before the fact.

The best part is at the end when he quotes a very famous passage from George Orwell, which I won't spoil for you. When you hear it though, it will hit you like a rubber club and you will immediately recognise it.
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"If a man hasn't found something he is willing to die for, he isn't fit to live."
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APCP · Posted: Mon 2004-07-12 22:45

Yes, supposedly only one member of congress had a son in Iraq, but that doesn't mean that another doesn't have a daughter, step-daughter, step-brother, nephew, cousin, friend, etc. in Iraq.

Big Brother · Posted: Sat 2004-07-17 04:01

I just saw the film, and I have one quick comment.

At the end of F911, M&M reads the following quote from George Orwell....

"It does not matter if the war is not real. For when it is, victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous. A hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance, this new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. the war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or east Asia but to keep the very structure of society in tact"

This is all well and good. I quite impressed to see the film end with this little ode to the master himself. But there is only one problem....

This quote is not from George Orwell... It is from the friggin movie.

I just had to share that little factoid with the world. I'll have more comments on the film later...

Bill · Posted: Sat 2004-07-17 12:18

Big Brother · Posted: Sat 2004-07-17 21:28

The basic layout of the movie is as follows...

1) Starts off with the election of 2000. Claims that Gore would have been president if it wasn’t for the all-powerful Bush family. (But fails to mention that there were some shenanigans on both sides of the isle)
2) After the credits, it shows what Bush was doing during his first 8 months in office... nothing.
3) The screen goes black -- BOOM, scream, cry....
4) Shows bush's response to 911.
5) Shows the Bush family's ties to Saudi Arabia and the Bin Laden family
6) Shows video of the war in Iraq, and a lengthy section on the mother of a soldier who was killed.
7) Ends with the Orwell "quote" from "War is Peace".

In general, I think he spent too much time "exposing" the Bush family's ties to the Saudi's, and not enough time discrediting the claims of WMDs.

The blacks in the theater appeared to think that they were at some sort of religious revival. When one of the interviewees said that he used to be a Republican and now he is a Democrat, the dark-proles stood up and cheered. Apparently they missed the part about how the Democrats supported the war and the patriot act.

(Moore does mention this fact briefly, but does not specifically name one of they Dems who voted for this crap... John Kerry)

As far as absolute "lies", I can't really say I saw any. (Except for incorrectly attributing the Orwell quote) In fact, I think he could have said a lot more about the “lies” of WMD in Iraq. I suppose the reason for not delving too far into this was because he didn’t want to look like a “liar” if some WMDs were to turn up. But my primary problem with the film is that I think it left many in the theater with false impression that the getting rid of Bush will solve all the problems in government. It won't.

OBI · Posted: Sun 2004-07-18 05:18

MM is a fat liar and careless with his lies.
Must be the money eh? What do you think?
May be MM is cashing in on the unpopularity of the Presidential Office.
There, there they go through the motions.
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zombywuf · Posted: Sun 2004-07-18 13:27

To me Michael Moore films are ruined by the fact that you're constantly aware that you're watching Michael Moore. I can never tell if he's trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator or if he is the lowest common denominator. He's had a couple of TV shows here in the UK and he generally came accross as an idiot.
He's certainly very good at following the money, but he also is not averse to inventing the evidence should it be needed. I also think he could have provided better analysis. For example the footage at the begining with Bush vacationing implied to me that here was a man who didn't realise that the game of ziggurat climbing politics ends when you reach the top. From what he was saying about the "work" he had to do it sounded like the usual closed door shady dealings that are usual to engage in when you're climbing the ladder, but not the running of a country. MM didn't seem to even think about mentioning this.
I also really wish he hadn't kept using that stupid edge detect video filter to make people look evil.
To me the most impotant line in the film was this one:
"Sit closer son, we don't often read every bill that gets passed."
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