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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3299
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon 2004-07-05 18:35
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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| Strategies Against Oligarchism |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Regardless of our geographical locations and political inclinations, I think the majority of us can agree on three things:
1. The current political system is unacceptable.
2. We recognise oligarchism as the main problem.
3. The people are in a state of political lethargy.
Hence, I thought it could be interesting to try to find convenient strategies against this menace – strategies that can be applied in everyday life and that don't require time-consuming commitment. Hopefully, we could agree on some kind of manifesto prototype and possibly even distribute it on Internet. At least, then we would do something to change the situation.
STRATEGIES AGAINST OLIGARCHISM
Keep yourself informed. Read as much as possible and encourage your friends to read, regardless of what they want to read; if they read tons of pulp fiction, they will sooner or later explore more advanced literature. Make sure to subscribe to a quality newspaper, because they often offer more in-depth news coverage and information than television programs. Use the Internet to find alternative news coverage and information, but don't trust these sources blindly. Don't ignore television, but focus on news broadcasts and documentaries. Knowledge is the fundament of serious politics.
Always ask the question "WHY?" We take too many things for granted, even when we think that we apply critical thinking. Dare to confront your own values, attitudes and opinions with the question "WHY?" as well; it will certainly improve your debating skills. A value, attitude or opinion that can't be supported with proper arguments is worth nothing. Although it may seem extremely obvious, we tend to forget that there always is a purpose behind everything, including this very manifesto!
Get your political priorities right. The primary priority is to encourage critical thinking and political discussion. To promote specific ideologies, systems and parties is only the secondary or even tertiary priority; you might scare away ambivalent people. In fact, consensus doesn't have to be your enemy; if you can make everyone agree that the current order is unacceptable, you have already accomplished much. Combat the status quo first.
Don't focus on pseudo-issues. Common examples of pseudo-issues are the rights of homosexuals and the be-or-not-to-be of abortions. Such issues do of course encourage fervent debates, but they are basically only political distractions; such issues are insignificant next to issues such as power and wealth concentration, and they don't affect society at large. Don't engage in dog fighting on the surface of the Death Star – attack the core.
Contribute to the political debating climate in your own surroundings. If you are a parent, teach your children to think critically and independently. If you are a student, instigate political debates in the classroom. If you are a teacher, integrate critical thinking and political debating in your teaching. Or why not simply distribute your own political posters in your neighbourhood? Make it enigmatic – make people think.
Contribute to the political debating climate on Internet. Instigate political debates in every forum, message board and newsgroup. Remember that political debates occurs frequently even in explicitly non-political forums. If some posters complain that "this forum isn't supposed to be political", then accuse them rightfully for ignorance and lethargy. Stagnation is a menace – raise hell.
Create your own political island in the digital ocean. A basic web site without fancy graphics doesn't require much work at all; you decide yourself if you want to update and expand it in the future. Remember that, at a guess, only 5-20 % of all web sites can be labelled quality sites, and many important areas are not satisfactorily covered; your contribution is valuable. Offer something exclusive – something worthwhile to read.
Always vote and always encourage other people to vote. Remember that you can ALWAYS protest against the system by handing in a blank voting-paper. If only 5-10 % of the population use this form of protest, neither the mass media nor the politicians can ignore it; it's actually a powerful vote of censure. If you abstain from voting, you support the status quo.
Don't yield to consumptionist behaviour. As long as people find it more important to own status stuff than engage in politics, the status quo will prevail. As a rule of thumb, only purchase things that you need and things that can make you evolve as a person. Whenever possible, avoid corporate products – you only contribute to monopolies and oligopolies – and products with massive marketing campaigns – in the end, YOU pay for the marketing.
Always confront fervent defenders of the status quo. These people actually represent the worst kind of ignorance: the educated ignorance. Such people could hypothetically defend any status quo, even in a totalitarian state: "Well, it could have been worse." "We have nice houses and nice cars, so stop complaining." "No one has forced these people to be dissidents." "Okay, concentration camps aren’t nice, but they house criminals after all." |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #3302
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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Posted: Mon 2004-07-05 18:55
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| that's right |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I like your strategy Insoc Officer.
Good Stuff.
_________________
What is a Democratic Socialist?
It is a Communist who is cowardly
enough to call himself what he's not, for fear of backlash on the Semantics. It is about the "Speed" of the "Revolution".
Like Hitler said "get them persuaded and us elected"
Caveat Emptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Socialism
DO NOT USE BIG BROTHER'S LIBERTARIAN POLICIES AND BELIEFS AGAINST HIS HIMSELF AND HIS FORUM |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3304
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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Posted: Mon 2004-07-05 19:05
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Good post Ingsoc Officer!
I wont to build a Freewebs .com web-site add I wuold like your permition to use your Strategies Against Oligarchism as the center piece. So can I use it?    
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3314
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Posted: Mon 2004-07-05 20:03
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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| DO OUR PART |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Here's the link to FREEWEBS. We can flood the web with sites that use Ingsoc Officer's STRATEGIES AGAINST OLIGARCHISM as a main staple. We can use key words that come from the names of popular and up coming movies in the names of our web-sites, that way tons of people will stumble across our sites. Let's do our part and spread some of our own propaganda for a change!
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3315
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Mon 2004-07-05 20:33
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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| Re: DO OUR PART |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| I wont to build a Freewebs .com web-site add I wuold like your permition to use your Strategies Against Oligarchism as the center piece. So can I use it? |
Well, I don't know if you are pulling my leg now... But sure, feel free to use it as you see fit. You don't have to give me any credits. In fact, why not let it be a completely anonymous manifesto?
Furthermore, feel free to advance the concept and add own strategies you find to be essential. We could perhaps call this manifesto "Strategies Against Oligarchism v. 1.0"?
| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| Here's the link to FREEWEBS. We can flood the web with sites that use Ingsoc Officer's STRATEGIES AGAINST OLIGARCHISM as a main staple. |
That's an interesting idea. Maybe we should streamline the manifesto together first, though. This is just a prototype.
| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| We can use key words that come from the names of popular and up coming movies in the names of our web-sites, that way tons of people will stumble across our sites. |
On one hand, this strategy certainly captures the spirit of the manifesto; a very clever suggestion, I must say. On the other hand, it will certainly piss some people off.
| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| Let's do our part and spread some of our own propaganda for a change! |
That's the spirit! We have our disagreements, but I must give it to you that you think like a cyberspace revolutionary. I could certainly learn one or two things from you. |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3316
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Posted: Mon 2004-07-05 20:56
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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No I'm not pulling your leg, I really mean it. I bet we could get Big Brother to help. And who cares if people get med, isn't that what we wont?
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #3317
Joined: 15 May 2004
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Posted: Mon 2004-07-05 21:18
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I'm impressed with your insight, Ingsoc. You have a good comprehensive list, and if it's OK, I'd like to use your Strategies Against Oligarchism article in a new political area on my website.
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Always vote and always encourage other people to vote. Remember that you can ALWAYS protest against the system by handing in a blank voting-paper. If only 5-10 % of the population use this form of protest, neither the mass media nor the politicians can ignore it; it's actually a powerful vote of censure. If you abstain from voting, you support the status quo.
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In Ireland, they attempted to remove this right, however, we're going to have a lot of people voting in the next general election, and hopefully, we'll get rid of the near-fascist way we've been treated for the last few years.
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Don't yield to consumptionist behaviour. As long as people find it more important to own status stuff than engage in politics, the status quo will prevail. As a rule of thumb, only purchase things that you need and things that can make you evolve as a person. Whenever possible, avoid corporate products – you only contribute to monopolies and oligopolies – and products with massive marketing campaigns – in the end, YOU pay for the marketing.
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Indeed you should try to avoid the corporate products, but it is near imposssible in this day and age to not buy corporate goods. Corporations are everywhere. |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3321
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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Posted: Tue 2004-07-06 00:01
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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See, what did I tell you, it's working already!
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3322
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 464
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Posted: Tue 2004-07-06 02:20
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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| My New Site |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I just built my new site TERMINATOR 4 TRUTH. Tell me what you think and help me think of something to put on the home page.
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3334
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Tue 2004-07-06 18:16
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| No I'm not pulling your leg, I really mean it. I bet we could get Big Brother to help. And who cares if people get med, isn't that what we wont? |
Well, better mad than apathetic, I guess. Don't count on BB, though - he's already running a site AND a forum. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3335
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue 2004-07-06 18:21
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| RAKTHEUNDEAD wrote: |
| I'm impressed with your insight, Ingsoc. You have a good comprehensive list, and if it's OK, I'd like to use your Strategies Against Oligarchism article in a new political area on my website. |
Of course. To anyone that finds the manifesto useful: feel free to use it as you see fit.
| RAKTHEUNDEAD wrote: |
| Quote: |
Always vote and always encourage other people to vote. Remember that you can ALWAYS protest against the system by handing in a blank voting-paper. If only 5-10 % of the population use this form of protest, neither the mass media nor the politicians can ignore it; it's actually a powerful vote of censure. If you abstain from voting, you support the status quo.
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In Ireland, they attempted to remove this right, however, we're going to have a lot of people voting in the next general election, and hopefully, we'll get rid of the near-fascist way we've been treated for the last few years. |
The blank vote is in danger in Sweden too. I find it to be undemocratic. Basically, they are saying: "You HAVE to choose one of the established alternatives."
| RAKTHEUNDEAD wrote: |
| Indeed you should try to avoid the corporate products, but it is near imposssible in this day and age to not buy corporate goods. Corporations are everywhere. |
Right. It's not impossible, though. You can go to the local pizza baker instead of McDonald's. You can buy a cup of coffee instead of a bottle of Coke. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3336
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue 2004-07-06 18:24
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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| Re: My New Site |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| I just built my new site TERMINATOR 4 TRUTH. Tell me what you think and help me think of something to put on the home page. |
Looking good. I especially like the title. As for material, you can always do your personal interpretation on Nineteen Eighty-four or some other dystopian fiction. Or why not simply present your personal perspective on local, national and/or global politics? |
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Communism and Freedom
Spy
Post #3341
Joined: 10 Jun 2004
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Posted: Tue 2004-07-06 19:34
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: Arrakis |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Your Manifesto is very good, IO, but it does have one shortcoming: You cannot define yourself merely by what you are against. You must also make clear what you are for.
In other words, the Manifesto identifies the problem, but offers no solutions. I think you intended it this way, in order to appeal to the largest possible audience: Everyone who is opposed to the status quo. But some groups may be far more opposed to each other than they are opposed to the status quo. For example, you don't really expect communists and libertarian capitalists to join forces, do you?
_________________
"[What Hayek] does not see, or will not admit, [is] that a return to "free" competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because it is more irresponsible, than that of the State."
- George Orwell |
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #3348
Joined: 15 May 2004
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 13:56
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Quote: |
| Keep yourself informed. Read as much as possible and encourage your friends to read, regardless of what they want to read; if they read tons of pulp fiction, they will sooner or later explore more advanced literature. Make sure to subscribe to a quality newspaper, because they often offer more in-depth news coverage and information than television programs. Use the Internet to find alternative news coverage and information, but don't trust these sources blindly. Don't ignore television, but focus on news broadcasts and documentaries. Knowledge is the fundament of serious politics. |
I'm known for reading, reading a lot, reading well, reading fast and reading at an advanced level. I started reading at one and a half apparently, and my book collection has a wide variety: From Stephen King, to old classics such as Dracula, to "Technology for Motor Mechanics: 4"(Diesel engines). My bookcase is overflowing, and my wardrobe has several books and magazines in it. I have a subscription to National Geographic, constantly read newspapers(but generally the broadsheets), pick up The Phoenix(a political satire magazine) sometimes for a read. I don't think you'll have a problem with me not reading enough. And before you take a swipe at me for my reading habits, you have to remember: I'm still in the compulsory stages of school.
And, Solitary Poet, your website is interesting. I'm an avid fan of The Time Machine, and of H.G. Wells in particular(I've watched both versions of The Time Machine, read the book, and The Island of Dr. Moreau and The War of the Worlds, and got the hidden political message in The Time Machine when I read it). |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3353
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 15:53
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| RAKTHEUNDEAD wrote: |
And, Solitary Poet, your website is interesting. I'm an avid fan of The Time Machine, and of H.G. Wells in particular(I've watched both versions of The Time Machine, read the book, and The Island of Dr. Moreau and The War of the Worlds, and got the hidden political message in The Time Machine when I read it). |
And to think that on this very message board some one got on to me for using The Time Machine as a political sorce. Just for entertainment my eye!
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3355
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 16:46
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Communism and Freedom wrote: |
| Your Manifesto is very good, IO, but it does have one shortcoming: You cannot define yourself merely by what you are against. You must also make clear what you are for. |
That is indeed a good point. This is a most a deliberate strategy, though. If we can't decide together what we are for, maybe we at least can decide what we are against. It's like WWII, basically: all Allies realised that the biggest threat was the Third Reich.
If you want to know exactly what I'm for, please read the thread "Democratic Socialism" in the "Guest Rants" section.
| Communism and Freedom wrote: |
| In other words, the Manifesto identifies the problem, but offers no solutions. I think you intended it this way, in order to appeal to the largest possible audience: Everyone who is opposed to the status quo. But some groups may be far more opposed to each other than they are opposed to the status quo. For example, you don't really expect communists and libertarian capitalists to join forces, do you? |
As the cliché goes: United we stand, divided we fall. The division between different radical movements only serve to strengthen the oligarchies. As an analogy, Socialists and Liberals co-operated to introduce public voting in my own country. They realised that they had to work together to accomplish the creation of a democratic system.
Hence, I think that all political radicals ought to strive towards the same primary goal, namely to combat the political lethargy and thus break the oligharcal hegemony. I'm not saying that we should abandon our ideological beliefs. I'm only saying that we need to create a truly democratic debating climate, and we have to do this together. When this has been accomplished, may the best ideology/system/party/movement win.
I don't know if this is a realistic strategy - and it's probably a typically Democratic Socialistic strategy  - but I can't see how else we can change the situation. Left or right, the oligarchies remain. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3356
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 17:03
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| RAKTHEUNDEAD wrote: |
| And before you take a swipe at me for my reading habits, you have to remember: I'm still in the compulsory stages of school. |
Well, I've never had any plans to criticise your reading habits. Since you seem to have a good understanding of the world and how it works, you are evidently reading the right stuff. I'm not a traditional intellectual either; I have no particular reading patterns. I read classics, science fiction, history, psychology, religion, politics, art, cinema, what have you. But I do read constantly. That's the important thing.
BTW, I thought you were in upper secondary school. If you already have reached so far intellectually, I bet you will become a most radical student. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3357
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 17:17
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| And to think that on this very message board some one got on to me for using The Time Machine as a political sorce. |
I did, and I still do. "The War of the Worlds" certainly has, or at least had, political qualities - for one thing, it was a clever critique against colonialism and imperialism; Wells actually was a friend of Joseph Conrad ("Heart of Darkness") - but not necessarily "The Time Machine". Possibly, it offers some philosophical perspectives on the transience of civilisation and the emasculation of mankind, but that's about it. It doesn't really comment on our society or point at some immediate dangers.
Hence, I don't think "The Time Machine" can be compared with dystopian masterpieces such as "Nineteen Eighty-four", "Brave New World", "Neuromancer" or "The Handmaid's Tale". I agree that it's an important science fiction classic, but not that it possesses any particularly political qualities. You are of course free to make your own interpretation of the novel, but I'm also free to disagree with your interpretation.
Finally, you have to remember that Wells harboured quite dubious political opinions at times. Most notably, "A Modern Utopia" actually preaches systematic oligarchism. However, it should be stressed that he was opposed to totalitarianism; "The Holy Terror" is a testimony of this. |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3359
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 17:47
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I did, and I still do. "The War of the Worlds" certainly has, or at least had, political qualities - for one thing, it was a clever critique against colonialism and imperialism; Wells actually was a friend of Joseph Conrad ("Heart of Darkness") - but not necessarily "The Time Machine". Possibly, it offers some philosophical perspectives on the transience of civilisation and the emasculation of mankind, but that's about it. It doesn't really comment on our society or point at some immediate dangers. |
I'm suprised at you, Wells' message in The Time Machine was the same as yours; The current political system is unacceptable. Come on man, look what it lead to!
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I don't think "The Time Machine" can be compared with dystopian masterpieces such as "Nineteen Eighty-four", "Brave New World", "Neuromancer" or "The Handmaid's Tale". |
You forgot Zamyatin's We, The Clockwork Orange, and Animal Farm.
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3361
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 18:12
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I did, and I still do. "The War of the Worlds" certainly has, or at least had, political qualities - for one thing, it was a clever critique against colonialism and imperialism; Wells actually was a friend of Joseph Conrad ("Heart of Darkness") - but not necessarily "The Time Machine". Possibly, it offers some philosophical perspectives on the transience of civilisation and the emasculation of mankind, but that's about it. It doesn't really comment on our society or point at some immediate dangers. |
I'm suprised at you, Wells' message in The Time Machine was the same as yours; The current political system is unacceptable. Come on man, look what it lead to! |
Okay, let's say this can be seen as some kind of analogy: the Morlocks are the oligarchs, and the Eloi are the people. Even if we apply this perspective, it's still a quite abstract tale about oppressors and oppressed, and it doesn't point at any specific currents or dangers in our own society. As I see it, the novel only has one message, and a potentially crypto-Fascistic message at that: "Modern civilisation engenders utter emasculation."
Basically, "The Time Machine" lacks political relevance, although it certainly can be used as a rhetorical tool. But that's just my opinion. Feel free to make your own political interpretation of the novel.
| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| I don't think "The Time Machine" can be compared with dystopian masterpieces such as "Nineteen Eighty-four", "Brave New World", "Neuromancer" or "The Handmaid's Tale". |
You forgot Zamyatin's We, The Clockwork Orange, and Animal Farm. |
Nope, I did not "forget" anything. May I point you to a page on my web site:
http://hem.passagen.se/replikant/dystopia_list.htm
I think I know what I'm talking about. |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3365
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 464
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 19:58
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Quite impresive!
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #3366
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1697
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Average words per post: 194.13
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Posted: Wed 2004-07-07 22:24
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Quote: |
| BTW, I thought you were in upper secondary school. |
Compulsory in Ireland is until the age of 16, therefore I am still in compulsory schooling. I AM in the senior cycle, although I'm going onto Transition Year next year, which doesn't really teach the Leaving Cert curriculum.
| Quote: |
| Hence, I don't think "The Time Machine" can be compared with dystopian masterpieces such as "Nineteen Eighty-four", "Brave New World", "Neuromancer" or "The Handmaid's Tale". |
It definitely can't be compared to the likes of Orwell's masterpieces, and it isn't particularly political, I must agree - But there was a hint at politics in there. |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3375
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 464
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-08 01:54
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Go to my web site Terminator 4 Truth and highlite the article on the home page like you are going to copy and paste then see what happens. More people should do what I did, it's cool.
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #3376
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 658
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Average words per post: 93.16
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-08 03:24
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| This is my contrebution. |
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #3381
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 658
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-08 14:05
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| I did use your text as a center peice too, but i removed the socialistic part. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3386
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-08 16:50
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| Go to my web site Terminator 4 Truth and highlite the article on the home page like you are going to copy and paste then see what happens. |
Ha ha, that's quite subtle. Your site looks better and better every time I make a visit. Keep up the good work. |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #3399
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 4355
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Average words per post: 164.37
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-08 20:23
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Defenders of the Faith: |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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The Strategies Against Oligarchism attacks what I think are the causes of Human misery, the almost consistent pattern in Human History and Development the regular appearance of tyrannies both public and private.
This is not an ideology in the strict sense but an actual plan of action to do away with this recurrent human question.
Anyone from the public can participate, there is not political platform. It transcends political affiliation and partisan politics of the day. The plan transcend political and national boundaries.
If you believe in Representative/Participatory Democracy, follow the strategies, they are for you.
Freedom Awaits Us, We Must Fight For It.
Freedom One Day Will Be Ours to Keep.
This Fight Must Go On.
http://www.freewebs.com/freedomspress/whatisoligarchism.htm
_________________
What is a Democratic Socialist?
It is a Communist who is cowardly
enough to call himself what he's not, for fear of backlash on the Semantics. It is about the "Speed" of the "Revolution".
Like Hitler said "get them persuaded and us elected"
Caveat Emptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Socialism
DO NOT USE BIG BROTHER'S LIBERTARIAN POLICIES AND BELIEFS AGAINST HIS HIMSELF AND HIS FORUM |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3412
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Average words per post: 98.92
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Fri 2004-07-09 13:32
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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| Re: Defenders of the Faith: |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| carldiesturmer wrote: |
This is not an ideology in the strict sense but an actual plan of action to do away with this recurrent human question.
Anyone from the public can participate, there is not political platform. It transcends political affiliation and partisan politics of the day. The plan transcend political and national boundaries. |
Indeed. I couldn't have put it better myself. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3413
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
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Posted: Fri 2004-07-09 13:37
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| General Hein wrote: |
| I did use your text as a center peice too, but i removed the socialistic part. |
Admittedly, the point about consumptionism could be regarded as Socialistically coloured. I believe even a Anarcho-Capitalist at least would agree that monopolies and oligopolies are destructive, though; basically, they cripple the mechanism of free market capitalism.
Anyway, modify the manifesto any way you see fit. The important thing is that the message gets through: The oligarchal hegemony must be broken. |
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #3418
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 658
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Average words per post: 93.16
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Posted: Fri 2004-07-09 15:22
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ingsoc Officer wrote: |
| General Hein wrote: |
| I did use your text as a center peice too, but i removed the socialistic part. |
Admittedly, the point about consumptionism could be regarded as Socialistically coloured. I believe even a Anarcho-Capitalist at least would agree that monopolies and oligopolies are destructive, though; basically, they cripple the mechanism of free market capitalism.
Anyway, modify the manifesto any way you see fit. The important thing is that the message gets through: The oligarchal hegemony must be broken. |
True, but if I let you tell me the differnces between communism and socialism, I will tell the differances here, in my own words.
First, Capitalism is the system were everyone has the right to own a small company, and hire a small staff of people to get a job done, while most large corperations are heavily restricted with laws of fines.
Second, the Coalitionist veiw, is that every should have the right to create a small company, but unlike capitalism, large corperations can do what they do, as long as workers in the country have wage higher that $6.75,
that they provide a good basic health care and insurance for the employees(the corperation should see its workers as people also as investments that all in the corperation benifits from), and should have and keep a retirement fund for ALL employees. Unions would not be allowed, but if the company's stock or profits jumps, the employees will get all of the extra money, that has not been regimented in to different areas of the company. Yes people who worker there longer will get paid more that someone who did not work there as long on the same job. But the executives would get more money as normal, but they could lose it all if caught in a form of criminal activity.
Finaly, Corperatism, this is basically the system in Jennifer Government, for all that read it. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3423
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
Total Words: 368,198
Average words per post: 98.92
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Fri 2004-07-09 17:36
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| General Hein wrote: |
| Capitalism is the system were everyone has the right to own a small company, and hire a small staff of people to get a job done, while most large corperations are heavily restricted with laws of fines. |
Actually, this notion isn't necessarily incompatible with Socialistic ideology, at least not as manifested in Social Democracy, Market Socialism, and Democratic Socialism.
It seems we have somewhat different definitions of Capitalism. |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #3434
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 4355
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Average words per post: 164.37
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Posted: Fri 2004-07-09 22:33
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Coalitionism:Fighting Against Oligarchism,uniting democrats |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Uniting Democratic Forces Against the Common Foe:
-...because what unites is so much more important than what divide us....
I think we find that what we are against is more important than our personal or politicail biases.
We see, we have a common concept of Oligarchism as our enemy, we can not have real democracy unless we first do away with Oligarchism.
So even if we try to prevail in competition against other ideologies, it is rather pointless as we are not really addressing the real source of the political and economic questions posed by Oligarchism's stranglehold on society and economy.
Oligarchism, left unaddressed will eventually destroy/assimilate/co-opt whatever political movement takes over 'the official' reigns of government.
I guess that makes me non-conservative.....
May be the plan of action by IO is the first one to wake up to the REAL ENEMY OF HUMAN SOCIETIES. It seeks to directly confront the issue head on.
Its apolitical direction helps cement Solidarity among the democratic forces in our societies.
That's what I call vision.
Ultradoubleplusgood
This BBS is like a fastbreader mutant incubation chamber of new ideas, I like it.
Words from John Locke -taking things even further....
http://odur.let.rug.nl/%7Eusa/D/1651-1700/locke/ECCG/governxx.htm
| Quote: |
Oligarchy
da:Oligarkide:Oligarchiefr:Oligarchie
Oligarchy is a form of government where most political power effectively rests with a small segment of society (typically the most powerful, whether by wealth, military strength, ruthlessness, or political influence). The word oligarchy is from the Greek for "few" and "rule". Many political theorists have argued that all societies are inevitably oligarchies no matter the supposed political system.
Oligarchies are often controlled by a few powerful families whose children are raised and mentored to become inheritors of the power of the oligarchy, often at some sort of expense to those governed. In contrast to aristocracy ("government by the 'best'"), this power may not always be exercised openly, the oligarchs preferring to remain "the power behind the throne", exerting control through economic means. Unlike plutocracy, oligarchy is not always a rule by wealth, as oligarchs can simply be a privileged cadre. It has also been suggested that most communist countries fit the definition of oligarchy, in that the most ruthless segment of society comes to power by overthrowing other oligarchs.
A society may become an oligarchy by default as an outgrowth of the shifting alliances of warring tribal chieftans, although any form of government may transform into an oligarchy at some point in its evolution. The most likely mechanism for this transformation is a gradual accumulation of otherwise unchecked economic power. Oligarchies may also evolve into more classically authoritarian forms of government, sometimes as the result of one family gaining ascendancy over the others. Many of the European monarchies established during the late Middle Ages began in this way.
Oligarchies may also become instruments of transformation, insisting that monarchs or dictators share power, thereby opening the door to power-sharing by other elements of society. One example of this process occurred when English nobles banded together in 1215 to force a reluctant King John of England to sign the Magna Carta, a tacit recognition both of King John's waning political power and of the existence of an incipient oligarchy. As English society continued to grow and develop, the Magna Carta was repeatedly revised (1216,1217, and 1225), guaranteeing greater rights to greater numbers of people, thus setting the stage for British constitutional monarchy.
A modern example of oligarchy could be seen in South Africa during the 20th century. Here, the basic characteristics of oligarchy are particularly easy to observe, since the South African form of oligarchy was based on racism. After the Boer War, a tacit agreement was reached between English- and Afrikaans-speaking whites. Together, they made up about twenty percent of the population, but this small percentage had access to virtually all the educational and trade opportunities, and they proceeded to deny this to the black majority even further than before. Although this process had been going on since the mid-18th century, after 1948 it became official government policy and became known worldwide as apartheid. This lasted until the arrival of democracy in South Africa in 1994, punctuated by the transition to a democratically-elected government dominated by the black majority. |
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Oligarchy
| Quote: |
Power behind the throne
The phrase power behind the throne refers to a person or group that informally exercises the "real" power of an office. In politics, it most commonly refers to a spouse, aide, or advisor of a political leader (often called a "figurehead") who serves as de facto leader, setting policy through influence or manipulation.
The original concept of a power behind the throne was a Mediaeval-era figure of speech referring to the fact that the king's policies could be set by a counselor not seated in the throne but standing behind it- perhaps whispering in the king's ear- out of common sight.
In American politics, for example, Dick Cheney, the current U.S. Vice President has been characterised by some as being "the power behind the throne" of President George W. Bush; similarly, the current U.S. Senator Hillary Clinton has been accused by some of having been the same during the Presidency of her husband Bill Clinton. One should be careful in evaluating such claims, as political partisans often seek to portray an opponent as incompetent by suggesting that someone else is in fact responsible for his or her successes.
Another, similar term is éminence grise (French: "gray eminence"), a powerful advisor or decision-maker who operates secretly or otherwise unofficially. This phrase originally referred to Cardinal de Richelieu's right hand man, François Joseph du Tremblay, a Capuchin priest who wore gray robes. Because the Cardinal de Richelieu -- the power behind the throne of Louis XIII, King of France -- , as a Catholic cardinal, was styled Son Eminence ("His Eminence"), his alter ego Père Joseph was called l'éminence grise ("the Gray Eminence"). |
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Power_behind_the_throne[/code]
_________________
What is a Democratic Socialist?
It is a Communist who is cowardly
enough to call himself what he's not, for fear of backlash on the Semantics. It is about the "Speed" of the "Revolution".
Like Hitler said "get them persuaded and us elected"
Caveat Emptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Socialism
DO NOT USE BIG BROTHER'S LIBERTARIAN POLICIES AND BELIEFS AGAINST HIS HIMSELF AND HIS FORUM |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3459
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 464
Total Words: 63,475
Average words per post: 136.8
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sat 2004-07-10 16:24
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Are we alowed to post this stuff on our web sites?
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #3462
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 658
Total Words: 61,297
Average words per post: 93.16
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sat 2004-07-10 18:04
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| Are we alowed to post this stuff on our web sites? |
Yeah |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #3472
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 4355
Total Words: 715,812
Average words per post: 164.37
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Sun 2004-07-11 00:14
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| fastbreeder reactor of ideas |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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help yourself.
Ideas must be free for everyone to have, death to Thoughcrime, think whatever you feel like.
_________________
What is a Democratic Socialist?
It is a Communist who is cowardly
enough to call himself what he's not, for fear of backlash on the Semantics. It is about the "Speed" of the "Revolution".
Like Hitler said "get them persuaded and us elected"
Caveat Emptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Socialism
DO NOT USE BIG BROTHER'S LIBERTARIAN POLICIES AND BELIEFS AGAINST HIS HIMSELF AND HIS FORUM |
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #3701
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1697
Total Words: 329,434
Average words per post: 194.13
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-15 11:42
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I put the manifesto onto another forum, and the first response was "You forgot one thing... Start being ghey". The person even put the spelling "ghey" down. That's the last time I ever bring any good source from this forum board onto another forum(and yes, I am exaggerating).
Of course, a good explanation would be that it was a gaming forum, and all of the political debate was indeed that which Ingsoc Officer refers to as pseudo-issues: Gay marriage, Fahrenheit 9/11(I should add that there were a few people saying that Michael Moore was a Communist), et cetera. So, it wasn't well received there. Shows what they think. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3712
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
Total Words: 368,198
Average words per post: 98.92
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-15 17:40
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| RAK wrote: |
I put the manifesto onto another forum, and the first response was "You forgot one thing... Start being ghey". The person even put the spelling "ghey" down. That's the last time I ever bring any good source from this forum board onto another forum(and yes, I am exaggerating).
Of course, a good explanation would be that it was a gaming forum, and all of the political debate was indeed that which Ingsoc Officer refers to as pseudo-issues: Gay marriage, Fahrenheit 9/11(I should add that there were a few people saying that Michael Moore was a Communist), et cetera. So, it wasn't well received there. Shows what they think. |
Well, I know other people who raid gamer forums and I've been raiding movie forums myself. On one hand, it's not very rewarding: as soon as you shows them who's the fucking captain, they immediately abandon the ship. On the other hand, one can potentially accomplish very much: sometimes, one reaches people who clearly are bright, but not in the habit of discussing politics. Under optimal circumstances, you can create an avalance with a snowball. After all, politically enlightened people are already politically enlightened; they don't need to be shaken to wake up.
You must remember this: The majority of the people you meet on-line are not searching for anything, but escaping from something. Sometimes they are simply lonely and megalomanic, sometimes they are suppressed off-line and have developed inferiority complexes, sometimes their lives just suck in general and they want to let off some steam.
It doesn't matter what their motivations are, though. The important thing to remember is that they want artificial substitutes for love, respect and admiration. They don't want to be confronted with intellectually demanding stuff. They simply want anonymous and interactive television. They want to discuss movies, actors, gossip, TV shows, games, brands, commercials, jokes - and sometime also political pseudo-issues, which makes them feel important. I don't blame them, but I don't respect them either.
The one million dollar question is: How should one treat these people? Should one scare them off, drive them into a corner, confront them, provoke them, ignore them? I don't know. One thing is for sure, though: It's very time-consuming to debate politics with them, since they usually are uncapable of critical thinking and lack basic knowledge about essential issues. Is it really worth it?
Of course, by simply discussing this, I will scare away some people. Most people really fear introspection; this fear is the essence of their ignorance. |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3719
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 464
Total Words: 63,475
Average words per post: 136.8
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-15 20:37
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| Politics: Patriot |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I'm not Scared. I enjoy reading all of your posts, even when you're just telling me to go f*ck myself it chears me up.
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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RAK
Minster of Plenty
Post #3726
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1697
Total Words: 329,434
Average words per post: 194.13
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-15 22:55
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| Politics: Socialist |
Country: Ireland |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Quote: |
| The one million dollar question is: How should one treat these people? Should one scare them off, drive them into a corner, confront them, provoke them, ignore them? I don't know. One thing is for sure, though: It's very time-consuming to debate politics with them, since they usually are uncapable of critical thinking and lack basic knowledge about essential issues. Is it really worth it? |
It isn't worth it, but it surely is fun. Of course, that's the most ignorant response I got, one was somebody saying that this manifesto was nowt more than a "rant", one was a fervent defender of the status quo.
I personally confront the people you talk about, and it has led to warning and post queues in other forums.
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| You must remember this: The majority of the people you meet on-line are not searching for anything, but escaping from something. Sometimes they are simply lonely and megalomanic, sometimes they are suppressed off-line and have developed inferiority complexes, sometimes their lives just suck in general and they want to let off some steam. |
Good point. Of course, I DO regularly discuss politics offline, but again, a large proportion of the people I try to reach are again ignorant towards politics, and choose to be so.
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| They don't want to be confronted with intellectually demanding stuff. |
Exactly. I've seen people who are the epitome of unintellectuality online. |
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Ingsoc Officer
Minister of Truth
Post #3770
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 3722
Total Words: 368,198
Average words per post: 98.92
PoliMatch: n/a
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Posted: Fri 2004-07-16 16:03
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| I'm not Scared. |
Well, I don't think you belong to the group I'm talking about, so you shouldn't be scared.
| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| I enjoy reading all of your posts, even when you're just telling me to go f*ck myself it chears me up. |
Now, I never told you to do that, did I?  |
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