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Big Brother
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Posted: Mon 2004-06-14 02:02
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Fahrenheit 911 |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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http://www.fahrenheit911.com
Opens June 25th.
Any thoughts? |
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Erethemeus
Outer Party
Post #2491
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Posted: Mon 2004-06-14 02:30
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| Politics: Atheist |
Country: United Nations |
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| ...bah.. |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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...this is a movie by the man who tried to show the world that GM left Flint and screwed the worker without showing just how badly the worker was screwing GM. Living in Flint and having this moron's shadow constantly being casted over me is shameful and onerous. I appreciate his attempt to show things as they are, but his idea of "as is" is nothing but liberal ideology and often lacks a frame of reference that completely represents all parties involved. I'm not a conservative fool who hates him just for what he represents, but I am a moderate who feels that he does nothing but further polarize the nation without actually informing them of anyhting useful. This is a man who wastes his resources and intellignce on driving political ideals through an emotional medium and there's something disengenuine about somebody who operates as he does.
The name of the movie grabs at me though, and more than likely I'll end up seeing it.. and though I'll give it a chance, I don't have high expectations for it.
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APCP
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Posted: Mon 2004-06-14 04:42
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
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I'm going to see it, but I will be very skeptical. It has already been brought to light that Bowling for Colombine was nothing but a failed attempt at propaganda. Michael Moore is a lying SOB, and I warn you all to be skeptical of anything that he participates in.
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Big Brother
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-15 22:01
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
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'Fahrenheit 9/11' Gets Standing Ovations
Tuesday, June 15, 2004
By Roger Friedman
| From Fox News |
Fahrenheit 9/11' Gets Standing Ovations
The crowd that gave Michael Moore's controversial "Fahrenheit 9/11" a standing ovation last night at the Ziegfeld Theatre premiere certainly didn't have to be encouraged at all to show their appreciation. From liberal radio host and writer Al Franken to actor/director Tim Robbins, Moore was in his element. But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.
As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" — as we saw last night — is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty, and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice. Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets like Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say. Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and Bin Laden families.
First, I know you want to know who came to the Ziegfeld, so here is just a partial list. Besides Franken and Robbins, Al Sharpton, Mike Myers, Tony Bennett, Glenn Close, Gretchen Mol (newly married over the weekend to director Todd Williams), Lori Singer, Tony Kushner, "Angela's Ashes" author Frank McCourt, Jill Krementz and Kurt Vonnegut, Lauren Bacall (chatting up a fully refurbished Lauren Hutton), Richard Gere, John McEnroe and Patti Smythe, former Carter cabinet member and ambassador Richard Holbrooke, Carson Daly, NBC's Jeff Zucker, a very pregnant Rory Kennedy, playwright Israel Horovitz, Macaulay Culkin, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Kyra Sedgwick, Linda Evangelista, Ed Bradley, Tom and Meredith Brokaw, director Barry Levinson, NBC anchor Brian Williams, Vernon Jordan, Eva Mendez, Sandra Bernhard and the always humorous Joy Behar.
If that's not enough, how about Yoko Ono, accompanied by her son, Sean, who's let his hair grow out and is now sporting a bushy beard that makes him look like his late, beloved father John Lennon?
And then, just to show you how much people wanted to see this film, there was Martha Stewart, looking terrific. I mean, talk about eclectic groups!
Now, unless you've been living under a rock you know that this movie has been the cause of a lot of trouble. Miramax and Disney have gone to war over it, and "The Passion of the Christ" seems like "Mary Poppins" in retrospect. Before anyone's even seen it, there have been partisan debates over which way Moore may have spun this or that to get a desired effect.
But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. The film does Bush no favors, that's for sure, but it also finds an unexpectedly poignant and universal groove in the story of Lila Lipscombe, a Flint, Michigan mother who sends her kids into the Army for the opportunities it can provide — just like the commercials say — and lives to regret it. Lipscombe's story is so powerful, and so completely Middle American, that I think it will take Moore's critics by surprise. She will certainly move to tears everyone who encounters her.
"F9/11" isn't perfect, and of course, there are leaps of logic sometimes. One set piece is about African American congressmen and women voting against the war with Iraq and wondering why there are no Senators to support them. Indeed, those absent senators include John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy, among others, which Moore does not elaborate upon. At no point are liberals or Democrats taken to task for not speaking out against the war, and I would have liked to have seen that.
On the other hand, there are more than enough moments that seemed to resonate with the huge Ziegfeld audience. The most indelible is President Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of September 11, 2001, that the first plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. Bush was reading to a grade school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes. Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.
More than even "The Passion of the Christ," "F9/11" is going to be a "see it for yourself" movie when it hits theaters on June 25. It simply cannot be missed, and I predict it will be a huge moneymaker. And that's where Disney's Michael Eisner comes in. Not releasing this film will turn out to be the curse of his career. When Eisner came into Disney years ago, the studio was at a low point. He turned it around with a revived animation department and comedy hits like "Pretty Woman" and "Down and Out in Beverly Hills." But Eisner's short-sightedness on many recent matters has been his undoing. And this last misadventure is one that will follow him right out the doors of the Magic Kingdom.
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APCP
Outer Party
Post #2589
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-16 16:59
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: Confederate States of America (C.S.A.) |
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| Quote: |
| But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. |
Some one please show me just where it says in the first amendment that one must watch propaganda in order to keep their rights from being abrogated.
Big Brother, please tell me you don't support Michael Moore. 
Proof of his propaganda:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
That fat evil bastard. 
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #2590
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-16 17:11
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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| Moore should be shot by a marine scout sniper the triator. I think all go down to L.A. for the primer debate him than put a bullet in to his airhead. He just a fucking red communist asshole. He fails to realize that his way will liead to a F-451 state. |
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Communism and Freedom
Spy
Post #2593
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-16 17:28
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: Arrakis |
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| General Hein wrote: |
| Moore should be shot by a marine scout sniper the triator. I think all go down to L.A. for the primer debate him than put a bullet in to his airhead. He just a fucking red communist asshole. |
Yes sir, mr. Hitler, sir! 
_________________
"[What Hayek] does not see, or will not admit, [is] that a return to "free" competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because it is more irresponsible, than that of the State."
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
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Posted: Fri 2004-06-18 01:28
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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| General Hein wrote: |
| Moore should be shot by a marine scout sniper the triator. I think all go down to L.A. for the primer debate him than put a bullet in to his airhead. He just a fucking red communist asshole. He fails to realize that his way will liead to a F-451 state. |
Seriously ... do you even read what your writing? ...If you have a problem with something , explain the problem in reference to the source material then how you feel it is invalid , and heck you could even add your own solution to the problem posed its what some people like to call making a composed arguement. Just saying lets go shoot someone because hes a "fucking red communist asshole" does nothing but make you look even less intelligent which for some people Im sure is quite a shocking concept.
As for Fahrenheit 9-11 its like any type of political commentary youve gotta take it with a pinch of salt , everyone no matter how impartial they want to be has some bias and michael moore is certainly no exception. Im somewhat looking forward to aquiring this one though as it seemed to go down well in cannes (with mostly american judges including tarantino whose opinion I respect in such matters) and Ive always felt that moore has had his heart in the right place when writing his books and filming his movies even if the outcome can end up a little bias. Heck I doubt anyone can deny there isnt easily enough right wing propaganda to balance it out a couple times over flying around.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Bill
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Posted: Fri 2004-06-18 10:58
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| Politics: X-tremely Silly Party |
Country: Airstrip One |
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| Quote: |
| As for Fahrenheit 9-11 its like any type of political commentary youve gotta take it with a pinch of salt , everyone no matter how impartial they want to be has some bias and michael moore is certainly no exception. |
Very true.
Moore, unfortunately, makes stupid factual errors that undermine his integrity. For example: In his book 'Stupid White Men' there's a chapter which includes reference to BSE (mad cow disease) and how the Prion which causes it cannot be destroyed (I’m quoting from memory). He then goes on to say that the mass burning of carcases during the foot and mouth outbreak was going to spread the disease all over the local area. Here, he has taken two facts: 1) The Prion is a protein it cannot be destroyed during cooking with out destroying the rest of the protein in the meat. 2) There was concern about the uncontrolled incineration of carcases releasing dioxins and contaminating the local area. Then, got them wrong, and mixed them up for effect. |
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #2657
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Posted: Fri 2004-06-18 11:40
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
| General Hein wrote: |
| Moore should be shot by a marine scout sniper the triator. I think all go down to L.A. for the primer debate him than put a bullet in to his airhead. He just a fucking red communist asshole. He fails to realize that his way will liead to a F-451 state. |
Seriously ... do you even read what your writing? ...If you have a problem with something , explain the problem in reference to the source material then how you feel it is invalid , and heck you could even add your own solution to the problem posed its what some people like to call making a composed arguement. Just saying lets go shoot someone because hes a "fucking red communist asshole" does nothing but make you look even less intelligent which for some people Im sure is quite a shocking concept.
As for Fahrenheit 9-11 its like any type of political commentary youve gotta take it with a pinch of salt , everyone no matter how impartial they want to be has some bias and michael moore is certainly no exception. Im somewhat looking forward to aquiring this one though as it seemed to go down well in cannes (with mostly american judges including tarantino whose opinion I respect in such matters) and Ive always felt that moore has had his heart in the right place when writing his books and filming his movies even if the outcome can end up a little bias. Heck I doubt anyone can deny there isnt easily enough right wing propaganda to balance it out a couple times over flying around. |
Most of the time no, and I don't care atleast I can speak English, unlike all these illeagal mexican immigrants invading SoCal. |
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Lt. Vanish
Spy
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Posted: Mon 2004-06-21 21:18
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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Just because you disagree with Moore's views gives you no reason to say he should be shot. Everyone has an equal right to be heard and others to hear them. While I may think Rush Limbaugh is a lying, foaming, balding, ignorant, fat-ass, pill-popping, contemptuous, whore screwing bastard, I don't go around saying he should be shot or anything like that. I just denounce him for the hypocrite he is. Limbaugh is propaganda for the neocons.
To say someone should be silenced or censored is the most un-American...most un-Democratic thing you can say, and certainly goes against one of the main tenants of this site: the freedom of speech.
| Dead Kennedy's wrote: |
| Tell me who’s the real patriots; The Archie Bunker slobs waving flags? Or the people with the guts to work for some real change? Rednecks and bombs don’t make us strong...Real freedom scares you, because it means responsibility. So you chicken out and threaten me, saying "Love it or leave it"...If you want a banana republic that bad, why don’t YOU go move to one? |
For those of you that like censorship and silencing, move to China or North Korea.
I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend with my life your right to say it. |
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #2801
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-22 04:00
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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| lets fix one thing, America is not a democracy, it is a Representive Republic. |
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #2804
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-22 08:43
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
Some one please show me just where it says in the first amendment that one must watch propaganda in order to keep their rights from being abrogated.
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All political movements have propaganda. But Michael Moore is not much worse than the evening news or the commercials and PSAs that play during the superbowl.
| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
Big Brother, please tell me you don't support Michael Moore.
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No... I'm not a liberal. I'm a big supporter of the 2nd Amendment, but I still watched "Bowling".
But in M&M's lesser know film... "The Big One"... there was a lot I agreed with. That film focused primarily on the follies of corporate scumbags. Not 100% agreement, of course... but still worthwhile viewing.
And in "F911", I'm sure there will be a lot I agree with as well. The Bush administration is evil... but I'm guessing that this film will probably not hold Kerry or any of the other Republicrats under the fire for supporting the Patriot act or the War in Iraq. And that is what makes it propaganda. It is selective bashing. And it will probably not make any claims as to what Bush "should" have done. It will just say that Bush is wrong, and imply that the Liberals would have done better. Bad, Naughty, Evil Propaganda.
But I will watch it just the same.
| Lt. Vanish wrote: |
Just because you disagree with Moore's views gives you no reason to say he should be shot. Everyone has an equal right to be heard and others to hear them. While I may think Rush Limbaugh is a lying, foaming, balding, ignorant, fat-ass, pill-popping, contemptuous, whore screwing bastard, I don't go around saying he should be shot or anything like that. I just denounce him for the hypocrite he is. Limbaugh is propaganda for the neocons.
To say someone should be silenced or censored is the most un-American...most un-Democratic thing you can say, and certainly goes against one of the main tenants of this site: the freedom of speech.
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I'm sure this film is full of things that the average person has never heard before.... like how Bush allowed Bib Laden's family to flee the US immediately following the attack. What's up with that?
The people aren't told these things through the regular media...and if it takes a "propaganda" film such as this to get this information out, so be it. If M&M is lying about something or distorting it, let us know.
"If [a] book be false in its facts, disprove them; if false in its reasoning, refute it. But for God's sake, let us freely hear both sides if we choose." - Thomas Jefferson to N. G. Dufief, 1814.
But I'm sure most of America will find this film enlightening. The average Joe will finally learn things that people on the internet have known for years. |
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Lt. Vanish
Spy
Post #2833
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-22 22:06
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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| General Hein wrote: |
| lets fix one thing, America is not a democracy, it is a Representative Republic. |
No country is a democracy in the true sense of the word. This country however, is a republic based on democratic principals. It is a democratic republic.
This is why we directly elect our head of government instead of having Congress do it for us, like in Westminster countries. This is also why, in some states, the population can amend the constitution or pass statutes or levy taxes, bypassing the executive and legislative branches (although they are usually the ones to initiate it, but not in all cases).
This is also why we have a constitution -- to limit the government and hold it accountable to the people. This country was created "of, by and for the people". In the Declaration of Independence, it says "when a government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the citizens to alter or abolish it".
Of course, whether or not we can secede from the union or rebel and usurp the present government (which according to the constitution, we can) is the topic for another post, so if you do reply about this, only post a link to another thread in a forum that isn't related to media.
| Big Brother wrote: |
| The Bush administration is evil... but I'm guessing that this film will probably not hold Kerry or any of the other Republicrats under the fire for supporting the Patriot act or the War in Iraq. |
Have you read Against All Enemies? That is a good book that knocks both Bushes as well as Clinton.
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"If a man hasn't found something he is willing to die for, he isn't fit to live."
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. |
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Fallen_angel_z
Prole
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-23 14:35
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| Politics: Social Decomcrat |
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Although Michael Moore and Rush are on different sides of the political spectrum, both of them are full of 
 I censored my self!
I hope this film shows that Bush is just a pupet
with big oil's hands up his  .
So if this film gives any trouble to the President, he might actually have to catch Osama Bin Laden one week before election in Nov. |
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #2874
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-23 22:38
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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Moore defends his film to the national media...
Interviews and Commentary Fahrenheit 9/11
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Communism and Freedom
Spy
Post #2990
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Posted: Sun 2004-06-27 11:54
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: Arrakis |
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| General Hein wrote: |
| lets fix one thing, America is not a democracy, it is a Representive Republic. |
"Republic" is a rather meaningless term. Technically, a "republic" is any country that is not a monarchy. The USA is a republic. Iraq is a republic. North Korea is a republic. The Congo is a republic.
The differenciation of countries into "republics" and "monarchies" was suitable way back in the 19th century, but today it is completely out-dated. The USA has more in common with monarchies like Britain than with republics like North Korea.
So a proper term for the USA would be "Representative Democracy", not "Republic". Also, with its rigid two-party system, the USA is a rather weak representative democracy. It is far less democratic than most other first world countries.
_________________
"[What Hayek] does not see, or will not admit, [is] that a return to "free" competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because it is more irresponsible, than that of the State."
- George Orwell |
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APCP
Outer Party
Post #3003
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Posted: Sun 2004-06-27 18:40
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: Confederate States of America (C.S.A.) |
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Excuse yourselves, but why would Bush invade Iraq for oil? It doesn't make sense; with all the money he spent to invade Iraq, he could have bought more oil legally.
Also, Lt. Vanish, Moore should be silenced. Why? Because he uses misleading information, puts it together with details left out, to paint a false impression without muttering a false word. Until Michael Moore (and all other propagandists) stop using propaganda, they should not be allowed to make public statesments, "documentaries", or anything else to push their god damned propaganda further. Speak the truth or shut up.
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com
Looks like an interesting movie. 
EDIT: Damn it! Hein beat me to it.
I need a hug. 
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jorge4
Prole
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Posted: Sun 2004-06-27 19:00
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| Politics: Libertarian |
Country: United States |
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| fuckabunchof this movie (spoilers included) |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Ok i went and spent my $7 of American Currency to see this propaganda piece. The theater in Missoula, Montana was packed chauck full o' Hippies college students (I fall under that catagory) activists etc. The crowd instantly begins to yell at the screen, applaud at "Directed by Michael Moore" and all that. I watched the flick, and as a lackluster student of film I noticed how Moore would use sharp editing, music and humor to get an emotional response just like his other films. His film would rely on one interview of stating how there were 1100 special forces operators in Afganistan and that there were more cops in New York then troops on the battlefield. What will piss off a shitload of Republicans is the fact that Moore makes the U.S. Military look bad- he follows Marine recruiters in their efforts to do their job and he bitches about how they go to the "poorer" mall to look for prospectives then the more "upscale" Cathedral to Capitalism. Moore presents only one side. I hate Bush but this is dumb as fuck. |
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Big Brother
Administrator
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Posted: Sun 2004-06-27 21:27
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
Excuse yourselves, but why would Bush invade Iraq for oil? It doesn't make sense; with all the money he spent to invade Iraq, he could have bought more oil legally.
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Take a brief look at the history of the US/Iraq conflict...
Thanks for the Memories
Saddam was our buddy for many decades. So the $20,000 question is... When exactly did this good-natured relationship end?
Well... the first signs of distress came after Iran/Conta, when it was revealed that the US government -- who was giving Saddam military aid in his fight again Iran -- was also giving aid to Iran. We just wanted to see them blow the shit out of each other...(and profit off of their destruction)... and we were successful. The Iran/Iraq war left Iraq in the shitter. So after the war, Saddam wanted to raise the price of oil in order to help speed along Iraq's recovery.
It was at this is the moment he became our enemy. (Forget about all that "ethnic cleansing" crap... he did all of that with our support.) He tried to pressure OPEC to cut production, but they refused. So he decided to invade Kuwait, which -in addition to gaining the Kuwaiti oil itself - will allow him to have greater sway in oil prices.
He even informed the US of his plans beforehand, and TWICE to U.S. basically told him to go for it.
But immediately after the invasion, Saddam became Hitler... the US had no choice but destroy Iraq's army and bring monarchy back to the oppressed Kuwaiti people.
Are you trying to say that the Gulf War had nothing to do with oil?
If it wasn't about oil, what was it about?
For a decade, the US has been trying to destroy the Iraqi economy. I think the US was hoping that somebody in Iraq would get sick of all of it and overthrow that evil madman who tried to raise oil prices -- Saddam. But it didn't happen.
You asked why Bush just didn't use that 87 billion to buy more oil. But what good would that do? Would congress approve such a deal? Where would the oil go? Who would sell it?
But you're right... everybody knows that it is "all about the oil", but few people can actually explain what that means. We are not just going to waltz in their and take the oil, ship it home, and share the plunder equally among all Americans.
Remember --- back before the president requested that $87 Billion -- the original plan was to use the profits from Iraqi oil sales to pay for the war. And where does that money go exactly?...
Military Manufactures and other private contractors.
(Ever hear of Halliburton?)
But of course, the invasion didn't go as smoothly as promised... oil profits just weren't going to cut it (at least not in the short term) ... so it was necessary to pillage the US Treasury as well.
But I can't help but think this was their plan all along.
It's all about the Benjamins, baby.
Sure, there are other motivating factors as well -- Israeli nationalism, Western Imperialism, the "Permanent Wartime Economy" of the United States... But the oil in the region makes it all a little more profitable.
Don't tell me you buy this crap about fighting terrorism and bringing democracy to Iraq.
| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
Also, Lt. Vanish, Moore should be silenced. Why? Because he uses misleading information, puts it together with details left out, to paint a false impression without muttering a false word. Until Michael Moore (and all other propagandists) stop using propaganda, they should not be allowed to make public statesments, "documentaries", or anything else to push their god damned propaganda further. Speak the truth or shut up.
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There is propaganda all around you. If you believe that Michael Moore is the only propagandist in America, you obviously don't know what propaganda is. M&M is not the worst one out there... it's just that he doesn't happen to work for the government or a huge corporation.
So yes.. it's propaganda. But so is the Evening News... commercials... PSAs.... Presidential speeches... campaign promises...
...and this website (but, to a much lesser extent  )
You don't defeat propaganda by censoring it. You can't just label every single thing he says as propaganda and move on. You must defeat it on a point-by-point basis by demonstrating its falsehoods and exaggerations.... basically, by coming up with propaganda of your own.
(People who point out the flaws in M&M's work generally don't spend a lot of time talking about the other 90% he got right... hence, propaganda)
But whoever's propaganda more closely resembles the truth will (hopefully) win out in the end. |
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Lt. Vanish
Spy
Post #3019
Joined: 14 May 2004
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Posted: Mon 2004-06-28 16:02
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
| Moore should be silenced. Why? Because he uses misleading information, puts it together with details left out, to paint a false impression without muttering a false word. Until Michael Moore (and all other propagandists) stop using propaganda, they should not be allowed to make public statesments, "documentaries", or anything else to push their god damned propaganda further. Speak the truth or shut up. |
In that case, Bill O'Riley, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Dennis Miller, John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, Condelezzia Rice, etc. should also be silenced. The latter lie in an official capacity which makes it ten-times worse, as it causes death and suffering and destroys goods and services. Moore may exaggerate or make outlandish statements, but not to any greater extent than any of these people. Nothing he said ever got anyone killed.
| George Orwell in Nineteen Eighty-Four wrote: |
| The book fascinated him, or more exactly it reassured him. In a sense it told him nothing that was new, but that was part of the attraction. It said what he would have said, if it had been possible for him to set his scattered thoughts in order. It was the product of a mind similar to his own, but enormously more powerful, more systematic, less fear-ridden. The best books, he perceived, are those that tell you what you know already. |
Much of what Moore says is true, and isn't anything I didn't already know. He simply put it in a more systemised format.
If you say Michael Moore hates America, then I say he hates it no more than you or any of those people I listed above. One of the bedrock ideals of this country is the freedom of speech. To say that one should be murdered because of their exercise of this right goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for.
What you and these other neocons say is an abomination of the constitution.
*You think you should put innocent people in concentration camps while aiding and abetting those that attacked you
*You curtail civil liberties in the name of protecting freedom
*You talk about patriotism and creating jobs while giving tax amnesty to corporations that relocate overseas and destroy American jobs
*You talk about morality and ethics while torturing other in order to "liberate" them.
Nothing Moore said was new or entirely his own idea. I read these things and had knew of these opinions for two years.
| Communism and Freedom wrote: |
| The USA is a republic...The USA has more in common with monarchies like Britain |
I disagree. The United States and the United Kingdom are better described as infant oligarchical collectivisms. I compare the U.S. to the Weimar Republic, the "nine-eleven 'attacks' " to the Reichstag fire, the exploitation of a tragedy to further a political agenda to the Nazi Party's propaganda.
No wonder 70% of U.K. residents now believe that the United States is a bigger threat to the world than Al-Quaeda...
If you want propaganda, look no further than mainstream media in the United States. If you like your propaganda straight-up without any subtlety, watch Faux 'News'.[/b]
It seems some of you don't fully grasp one of the main tenants of this website: the freedom of speech. You neocons would make excellent Outer Party Members in Oceanic society. You had better pray to your various gods that you never get the chance to find out though, because
| Dead Kennedys wrote: |
| In a real Fourth Reich you'll be the first to go! |
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"If a man hasn't found something he is willing to die for, he isn't fit to live."
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. |
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #3032
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 02:19
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Idiodic Americans |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I was listening to the radio this morning ... St. Louis AM 550 (A generally non-political AM talk radio station) ... when they started discussing M&M's F911.
This fucking idiot Kevin Slaten ... This complete fucking MORON (Yeah, that's better) starting going off on M&M. He must have used the word "LIAR" about 20 times within a span of 2 minutes, and also sprinkled with a little "M&M is an un-American Terrorist" about 3 times.
After his little 2-minute hate, he started listing off all of M&M's "Lies"...
1) In B for C, M&M talked about a shooting in Flint Michigan that really wasn't in Flint Michigan.
Yeah... It was in an area just to the north of Flint. But it's like me saying I'm from St. Louis, when in fact I don't even live in Missouri... I live about 15 minutes to the East. But If I told somebody I was from Belleville, they'd probably have no idea what I was talking about. It is entirely legal to say that this shooting took place i Flint, even though it didn't take place in the city proper.
Actually, I'm not going to go through them all here. Most of M&M's "lies" are of the sort shown above...
More of B for C's "flaws" can be found HERE
About the worst one was that he took clips from several different Charlton Heston speeches and spliced them together to give the impression that everything Charlton said was from a speech in Colorado.... and some of the things he said were taken out of context.
But again... this makes it propaganda (Taking people's real words out of context... not exactly a lie.) Charlton Heston really did say those things. Just not all in one speech, and when you see what he said in context it does not sound quite as "crazed" as M&M made it appear.
But, anyway.. Another one of M&M's "lies" is that he tries to portray himself as a "regular guy" when in fact he had made quite a bit of money from his movies and books -- but how does this differ from any of the politicians that claim to be "average joes"... At least M&M really was pretty much an "average guy" before he became a success.
So yes... M&M is a propagandists... but no more so than "Bill O'Riley, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Dennis Miller, John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, Condelezzia Rice, etc."...
And this is what drives me mad. If that radio moron is going to call M&M a "Liar and a terrorist" because of the way he spins his material, is he going to hold the "rich and powerful" to the same standard? I mean, after hearing this guy ramble on for a half an hour about how "evil" Michael Moore is, I now think I have a better understanding of how it was possible for the Nazi's to come to power ... This guy truly believes every bit of crap that the president and his press secretary says. I have yet to here this guy call Bush a "liar and a Terrorist" for lying about WMD's, Saddam's Al Qaeda Connection, Saddam’s Nuclear programs, etc, etc. ... and for starting a war based on those lies.
And I can guarantee he wont. In fact, from other things this moron has said, it sounds like he really believes the official line about Iraq --- That we invaded to stop terrorism and liberate the Iraqi people.
Kevin Slaten ....
You are a Fucking Moron.
Actually, this idiot finally amitted (after a caller asked) that he has never actually seen any of M&M's films!!! What a fucking moron.
If any of you Euros want to hear some of the insane propaganda we Americans have to listen to, 550 offers their broadcast on the internet HERE
And bear in mind, that 550 isn't even a political station. (Rush lives on AM 1120 KMOX) 550 mainly focus on Sports and other "entertainment" type talk shows. The only political types are Crane Durham (Who hosts a show called "Nothing But Truth" from 9pm-12am Central... Who is, I should mention, also a complete fucking moron)... and that ex-sports-commentator-turned-amateur-Nazi I spoke of earlier, who's 2-hour hate airs from 9-11am Central) |
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oBrien
Junior Spy
Post #3033
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 04:47
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| Politics: Social Democrat |
Country: American Empire |
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| Better than "Bowling for Columbine" |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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well, i have to say it is much better than "Bowling for Columbine", though i feel as though the segment featuring the lady who lost her son in Iraq was perhaps a bit overdone. still, i can see a purpose for it: we rational criticizers of the current oligarchy-run ultra-conservative regime have tended to wax intellectual, to the exclusion of a much-needed emotional element. we aren't Kryptonians or Vulcans, so i think it is good to see an emotional spin on current events that isn't conservative-sponsored perverse nationalism, vengence, or thinly-veiled anti-arab/islam.
sure, it's propaganda, but at least it is propaganda grounded in facts and skeptical inquiry, which is an improvement over propaganda that is based on gross distortion of facts and a sort of weird time-lapsed bending of reality. the word that comes to mind, or rather came to my girlfriend's mind, for this sort of propaganda is agitprop, or agitational propaganda, which term was used in the 60's. in a society of rational beings this, or any other sort of propaganda, wouldn't be necessary and would in fact be an impotent vehicle for the conveyance of arguments. but we live in no such world, alas.
i enjoyed it, or rather was inspired to righteous indignation and fury because of it. the best part of the whole film was the part where all the black representatives voiced their objections to the election results, with nary a senator to back them up. a very sad moment in our history: the Democrats effectively implicated themselves in a bloodless coup by their silence, and as a result i switched over to the Socialist party. of course, i will probably vote for Kerry ... but it would be nice to see more than two parties, who of late seldom differ significantly from one another, hold court in the halls of public debate and representation. |
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APCP
Outer Party
Post #3034
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 05:14
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: Confederate States of America (C.S.A.) |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Muffin Man, er, I mean Michael Moore IS A LIAR.
I don't hate people that are against the war, but I HATE Michael Moore because of how he uses propaganda to toy with people's feelings all the while pushing his slanted propaganda. I hate him, he is the world's biggest disgrace of a human being.
BTW, I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 today. You noticed the editing he used. For instance, in one scene he talks about how the Texas corporations came to protect the oil wells after Iraq had been defeated. It then shows a man in a red suit with a white helmet on that shows a ball of fire on it. In the backround, you see an oil well burning. Well... this wasn't taken from the recent Iraqi war, but rather from the Persian Gulf war. That's just one instance of several in which I spotted is botchy attempts of misleading editing.
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autogod_v1
Committee Leader
Post #3041
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 15:02
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| Politics: Coalitionism |
Country: United Civilized States |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
Muffin Man, er, I mean Michael Moore IS A LIAR.
I don't hate people that are against the war, but I HATE Michael Moore because of how he uses propaganda to toy with people's feelings all the while pushing his slanted propaganda. I hate him, he is the world's biggest disgrace of a human being.
BTW, I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 today. You noticed the editing he used. For instance, in one scene he talks about how the Texas corporations came to protect the oil wells after Iraq had been defeated. It then shows a man in a red suit with a white helmet on that shows a ball of fire on it. In the backround, you see an oil well burning. Well... this wasn't taken from the recent Iraqi war, but rather from the Persian Gulf war. That's just one instance of several in which I spotted is botchy attempts of misleading editing. |
Amen brother, Amen... |
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Lt. Vanish
Spy
Post #3042
Joined: 14 May 2004
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 16:27
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| Politics: Libertarian-Socialist |
Country: Fascist States of America |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
| ...but I HATE Michael Moore because of how he uses propaganda to toy with people's feelings all the while pushing his slanted propaganda. |
If this is so, then you must hate all the other people I mentioned with equal intensity at the least because of the same reasons...after all, Michael Moore's "lies" didn't get anyone killed now did they? (Keep in mind we are only talking about Fahrenheit 911.)
It is interesting though, to read about how much money his films make...
_________________
"If a man hasn't found something he is willing to die for, he isn't fit to live."
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. |
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APCP
Outer Party
Post #3046
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 18:20
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: Confederate States of America (C.S.A.) |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Uh... Let me check the name of the topic. Oh! This is about Michael Moore's latest movie, Fahrenheit 9/11. It's not about any one else, but this overrated asshole's movie. Hell, the movie wasn't even good. It sucked balls. B for C was better than this shit. Give me a god damn refund the fat fuck.
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3048
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 19:25
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Did anybody watch Scarborough Country last night? He did a pritty good job of ripping F9/11 into teeny tiney pieces. I look forword to watching his continious reports on the movie. I brobably wont watch the movie untill they show it on trio. I will at least wait untill it hits the doller theater so as to contribute as little money as possible to the films proffits.
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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oBrien
Junior Spy
Post #3067
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 21:39
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| Politics: Social Democrat |
Country: American Empire |
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| What a goddamn mess! |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Capitalist Pride wrote: |
Muffin Man, er, I mean Michael Moore IS A LIAR.
You noticed the editing he used. For instance, in one scene he talks about how the Texas corporations came to protect the oil wells after Iraq had been defeated. It then shows a man in a red suit with a white helmet on that shows a ball of fire on it. In the backround, you see an oil well burning. Well... this wasn't taken from the recent Iraqi war, but rather from the Persian Gulf war. That's just one instance of several in which I spotted is botchy attempts of misleading editing. |
hey, i didn't catch that! that's true, though, isn't it? well, hell, my only beef with michael moore is a big one: that he is an agitprop bastard. still, at least there is a liberal propagandist out there now, in a field dominated by conservatives. or is that better? i think it may be a pretty bad indication of the increasing intellectual laziness of American society at large, if the only way to get a message across is by means of propaganda, rather than honest debate. i guess i'm going to have to look into this, and conclude he is another lying sack of shit, along the lines of Rush Limbaugh and those bastards in the New York Post. jesus, this is a mess, and i really want to just take a nap, rather than sift through the myriad claims and counter-claims to determine the truth.
_________________
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
Post #3072
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Posted: Tue 2004-06-29 22:33
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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By the way how do you post images?   
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #3088
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-30 01:05
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: |
| By the way how do you post images? |
Check this out...
BBcode is your friend
Anyway...
Michael Moore has made several films.
Michael Moore on the IMDB
I've seen 2 of them... Bowling for Columbine, and The Big One.
B for C... I'm a big 2nd Amendment type of guy... But I watched it. And what did I get out of it?... I got the impression that America loves its guns. And he is right... we do.
The Big One... What I get out of that one?... Corporations Suck... Book Publishers Suck... Unions are cool... and the guy from Cheap Trick really was home.
Fahrenheit 911 - Haven't seen it yet. But I have penciled in for some time this week. I'll give y'all a movie review later... |
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JD-sama
Minister of Truth
Post #3093
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-30 09:34
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| Politics: Communist |
Country: United Kingdom |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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Point me to one documentary ,newspaper article ,or heck post on this board about politics that isnt biased in some manor , just as we compose our sentance and chose our words and facts to best present our point of view films such as F911 do the same with well placed pictures and edits along with statistics (which can prove everything including their own lack of validity with enough time and some knowledge of maths).
Sure you can pick apart F911 and say this bit suggests something that isnt the whole truth, just as you can in any political speech or any news broadcast. Its just how the media works today , people on the whole are uneducated and apathetic ... hate to say it but its true . If they see or hear lies they like the look of, they'll follow them and the intelligent are never short of seemingly sensical lies .
"intelligent people will always find intelligent reasons to believe things they came to believe unintelligently"
The plain whole unadulterated truth is boring , and most dissapointingly it doesnt tell you how to think ... you have to actually think about what you believe ... that sounds like a lot of work , most people would rather just go down the bar for some prole feed.
So were stuck with propaganda as the only form of communication , were stuck with it unless the masses become educated ... thats not gonna happen for a while so the best compromise is propaganda from all sides of the spectrum, hopefully when people are exposed to lies telling to do different mutually exclusive things theyll have to at least think a little to decide what their favourite lie is.
So in summary in a world overun with right-wing propaganda I think Michael Moore is a beneficial influence for democracy , however he is still propaganda pure and simple . I think at the end of the day the line you have to draw is at telling downright lies , although a straight lie is rarely effective propaganda as long as you have opposition to point out its a lie, thats the purpose of michael moore for the right wing media and the right wing media for michael moore.
_________________
"I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.
I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.
But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.
When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig."
-Frederica Bernkastel |
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #3111
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-30 18:39
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| JD-sama wrote: |
I think at the end of the day the line you have to draw is at telling downright lies , although a straight lie is rarely effective propaganda as long as you have opposition to point out its a lie, thats the purpose of michael moore for the right wing media and the right wing media for michael moore. |
"Propaganda, to be effective, must be believed. To be believed, it must be credible. To be credible, it must be true" - Hubert H. Humphrey (1911-1978), U.S. Democratic politician, vice president. Speech, December 6, 1965, Medford, Massachusetts |
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Solitary Poet
Committee Member
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Posted: Wed 2004-06-30 19:06
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| Politics: Libertarian-Capitalist |
Country: Evil Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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BB has a point. 
_________________
Why I don’t believe in “world peace”, by S. Poet
World peace would inevitably lead to lethargy of the human race and it’s eventual extinction. It’s adversity that fuels change; chaos is what moves things forward. It is not religion that fuels war, but opinion and individuality that drive people into conflict.
As long as humans are free to think and disagree there will be conflict and war. The individuality and uniqueness of free thought, that form the mote of the soul, are the causes of war. To end war you must destroy the human soul, you must cease to be human.
If there is nothing left to fight for, there is nothing left to live for. World peace is suicide.
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A Priori
Outer Party
Post #3113
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 00:35
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Propaganda? |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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American journalism has lost its way. Whenever a columnist wants to make a point, he usually points to something sombody said (an expert quote of some kind), or, if he is really intelligent, a multitude of quotes from several different people. Never have I heard or read a journalist that cites facts and/or figures from the US Census or from academia.
Just look at an AOL message board...
*Yuck*
I find that Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting is a good source for skeptical commentary.
Other than that, I very seldom read a newspaper or watch the evening news to keep myself informed. Academia is a much better souce. The National Academy of Sciences or government sources are usually the most reliable. In this discussion, I also posted some more of my primary news sources.
The same goes for Micheal Moore's movies and his old television series, The Awful Truth. While I may think that he is correct in his assertions, I find it rather annoying when, arguing with a dittohead, that someone claims a "win" when I can't defend Micheal Moore's "immaculate credibility", but when I am otherwise absolutely correct (and have mountains of non-anecdotal, empirical evidence on my side).
Also, The Library of Congress has an excellent legislative tracking system to keep one informed of goings-on in Washington. You can even read the bill's text in question (up to the 108th congress)!
It's called THOMAS. |
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oBrien
Junior Spy
Post #3116
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 01:58
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| Politics: Social Democrat |
Country: American Empire |
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| Hypothetical Scenario (disheartening) |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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this is going to be tough for me to do, because my girlfriend is blasting the Ramones, but i'll give it a shot ... "Sweet Mary Jane..." aaaggghh, must concentrate!
here in Portland, Oregon, we now have a liberal talk radio station, which took the place of a really good Oldies station, unfortunately. well, after having seen "Fahrenheit 9/11", and heard that it made more than US$ 22 million (Australians have dollars, too!), i started thinking about a hypothetical scenario, humor me, please.
- presently, the media is dominated by ownership friendly to conservatives, thanks to political financing and media consolidation, which reflects a largely conservative bias in the mainstream media: Fox, MSNBC, etc.
- "...gonna kill, kill, kill, kill, kill that girl tonight!" aarrrgghh! sorry!
- anyway, let us imagine a future, say 10 years from now, where liberal opinions have recaptured nearly half of the influence in the media, equalizing the bias in mainstream media.
- now, for every 10 news reports/interviews/feature stories/documentaries (etc. etc.), let's say approximately 6 are propaganda, 2 of which are extreme propaganda, along the lines of Rush Limbaugh.
some would say that this is great, greater exposure to different viewpoints. i immediately thought likewise: mayhap the conservative stranglehold on the media is over at last! "...she said she's babysitting tonight..." (damn it!) but, i am willing to maintain that this could actually be an even worsening of an already barely tenable condition. here is why:
- american society is, by and large, intellectually lazy.
- let us assume that our intellectual laziness doesn't change significantly in the near future.
- well, it is already somewhat bothersome and labor-intensive to sift through the propaganda and rhetoric in the media to discern anything even resembling truth, right?
- with greater exposure to even more propaganda, getting hit from two angles with what will often be two contradictory opinions, this will become all the more difficult and require more time and effort.
which leads to the conclusion that instead of serving to open peoples' minds to different opinions, which will then open the doorway toward inquiry and critical thinking, it will serve to frustrate and turn people off to the whole process of political inquiry altogether! i mean, one of the most common justifications i have heard for people being mindless voters, or not voting at all, is because they either don't know how to sort the truth out from the propaganda, or don't want to go to the effort.
this is merely a hypothetical scenario, mind you.
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The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. |
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Big Brother
Administrator
Post #3121
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 07:50
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| Politics: Libertarian-Syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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"The best propaganda omits rather than invents" - Mason Cooley (b. 1927), U.S. aphorist. City Aphorisms, Sixth Selection, New York (1989)
And this is what makes M&Ms films propaganda. In B for C, M&M demonstrated that Americans loved guns... and that America is full of gun violence. This leaves the impression that "getting rid" of guns will decrease violence. He never stated this thesis directly... but the slanted view he presented will lead many to this conclusion. But what he omitted was statistical information that shows that many other nations with guns don't have the same problems as America (There is something wrong with us other than just our 2nd Amendment)... and that within America, tighter guns laws tend to lead to more violent crime, and allowing more citizens to arm themselves reduces crime. (Every city that has passed "conceal-carry" laws has shown a small drop in violent crime).
That's why I could watch Bowling for Columbine without blowing my top. I know why M&M is wrong. It is only when one has no retort that one begins crying for censorship of opposing views.
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia - 1787
"Propaganda is that branch of the art of lying which consists in nearly deceiving your friends without quite deceiving your enemies." - F.M. Cornford (1874-1943), British author, poet. Quoted in New Statesman (London, September 15, 1978).
Liberals will love F911, because they believe Bush is Satan.... Conservatives will hate this movie, because M&M is a liar. It is the swing votes of the ignorant masses that will be won over by this film. |
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Bill
Committee Member
Post #3123
Joined: 21 Feb 2004
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 11:23
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| Politics: X-tremely Silly Party |
Country: Airstrip One |
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Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| BB wrote: |
| But what he omitted was statistical information that shows that many other nations with guns don't have the same problems as America |
He did contrast the position in the US with that of Canada, a country with similar numbers of guns but, with less gun related violence and pointed out the difference in attitude between the two neighbours towards gun ownership. |
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carldiesturmer
Minister of Truth
Post #3124
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 14:15
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Hidden variables? The historical variable |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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I think the Liberals and MM are not simply showing all the variables affecting gun violence, makes me ponder what's the real agenda.
Make a note of this link
http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/laws/us/origin.html
I think Liberals are either idiotic or devious, just read the historical record of gun controllers, further below.
IT WAS POWER AFTER ALL
What's Freedom?
A gun in possession of the populace
| From http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/laws/us/origin.html |
Origin of U.S. Gun Control Laws
Excerpts from an article in the May 1993 Guns and Ammo by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. Posted to the Internet with permission by Craig Peterson.
Members of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) consider gun control to be an aggressive cancer. JPFO has a cure, a way to destroy gun control. JPFO has hard evidence that shows that the Nazi Weapons Law (March 18, 1938) is the source of the U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA'68). Adolph Hitler signed the Nazi Weapons Law. The Gestapo (Nazi National Secret Police) enforced it. In Gun Control: Gateway to Tyranny we present the official German text of the Nazi Weapons Law and a side-by-side translation into English. Even more deadly: a side-by-side, section-by-section comparison of the GCA'68 with the Nazi Weapons Law. If you have this in your hands, no one can tell you that you're imagining things.
GCA'68 marked a new approach to gun control. It replaced the Federal Firearms Act (June 30, 1938), which was based on the federal power to regulate interstate commerce. The 1938 law required firearms dealers to get a federal license (which then cost $1). Only dealers could ship firearms across state lines. Ordinary people could receive shipments from dealers.
In GCA'68 the government required that in almost all cases only dealers could send and receive firearms across state lines. This ended "mail order" sales of firearms by law-abiding persons who are not licensed dealers.
GCA'68 hits you even harder. Congress gave federal bureaucrats in Washington, D.C., the power to decide what kinds of firearms you can own.
The framers of GCA'68 borrowed an idea--that certain firearms are "hunting weapons"--from the Nazi Weapons Law (Section 21 and Section 32 of the Regulations, page 61 and page 73, respectively, of Gun Control.- Gateway to Tyranny). The equivalent U.S. term, "sporting purpose," was used to classify firearms. But it was not defined anywhere in GCA'68. Thus, bureaucrats were empowered to ban whole classes of firearms. They have, in fact, done so.
The Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 replaced a Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 13, 1928. The 1928 law was enacted by a center-right, freely elected German government that wanted to curb "gang activity," violent street fights between Nazi party and Communist party thugs. All firearms owners and their firearms had to be registered. Sound familiar? Gun control did not save democracy in Germany. It helped to make sure that the toughest criminals, the Nazis, prevailed.
The Nazis inherited lists of firearm owners and their firearms when they lawfully took power in March 1933. The Nazis used these inherited registration lists to seize privately held firearms from persons who were not "reliable." Knowing exactly who owned which firearms, the Nazis had only to revoke the annual ownership permits or decline to renew them.
In 1938, five years after taking power, the Nazis enhanced the 1928 law. The Nazi Weapons Law introduced handgun control. Firearms ownership was restricted to Nazi party members and other "reliable" people.
The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms. On November 10, 1938--one day after the Nazi party terror squads (the SS) savaged thousands of Jews, synagogues and Jewish businesses through-out Germany--new regulations under the Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning any weapons, even clubs or knives.
Exhibit No. 62 (see reproduction) [added to the end of this document] is fascinating. This letter--dated July 12, 1968--is to Subcommittee Chairman Dodd from Lewis C. Coffin, Law Librarian at the Library of Congress. Coffin wrote:
"...We are enclosing herewith a translation of the Law on Weapons of March 18, 1938, prepared by Dr. William Solyom-Fekete of [the European Law Division -ed.] as well as the Xerox of the original German text which you supplied" (Subcommittee Hearings, p. 489).
This letter makes it public knowledge that at the end of June 1968 -- 4 months before GCA'68 was enacted -- Senator Thomas J. Dodd, now deceased, personally owned a copy of the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law.
We are not the first to have seen this hearing record. But we appear to be the first to have recognized its importance. This hearing record suggests strongly that the late Senator Thomas J. Dodd (D-CT) himself implanted the Nazi Weapons Law into American law, or, at very least, helped others to do so.
To order a copy of Gun Control: Gateway to Tyranny, send a check for $19.95, plus $2.95 shipping and handling ($22.90 total), to: JPFO, Inc., Dept. GA, 2872 S. Wentworth Ave., Milwaukee, WI 53207, (414) 769-0760. Wisconsin Residents add 5.5% Sales Tax. |
Yeah and Mike Moore is a fat bastard like Rush Limbaugh too.
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A Priori
Outer Party
Post #3125
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 254
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Posted: Thu 2004-07-01 15:09
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| Politics: Democratic-Socialist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Propaganda and Gun Control |
Post Rating: 0.0/4 (0 votes cast) |
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| Big Brother wrote: |
| And this is what makes M&Ms films propaganda. In B for C, M&M demonstrated that Americans loved guns... and that America is full of gun violence. This leaves the impression that "getting rid" of guns will decrease violence. He never stated this thesis directly... but the slanted view he presented will lead many to this conclusion. |
I'm with Bill here. A large part of that movie dealt with the American psyche, and instead implied that our culture of fear is responsible for our high rate of gun-related deaths. He did err on the side of gun control, but no so much as you make it sound.
| Big Brother wrote: |
| But what he omitted was statistical information that shows that many other nations with guns don't have the same problems as America (There is something wrong with us other than just our 2nd Amendment)... and that within America, tighter guns laws tend to lead to more violent crime, and allowing more citizens to arm themselves reduces crime. (Every city that has passed "conceal-carry" laws has shown a small drop in violent crime). |
I would tend to agree, but for every study that I have read linking gun-control to higher violent crime-rates, there was always at least one study contradicting it with different results, different statistics, and thus different conclusions. I simply don't know what to think. 
Gun control is one of the few issues where individuals can safely sit the fence.
| Big Brother wrote: |
| That's why I could watch Bowling for Columbine without blowing my top. I know why M&M is wrong. It is only when one has no retort that one begins crying for censorship of opposing views. |
One wonders why academia is not bothered by the existence of Rush Limbaugh, but conservative think-tanks usually scream for censorship when Micheal Moore posits his views. I think you have just stated the reason.
| Big Brother wrote: |
| Liberals will love F911, because they believe Bush is Satan.... Conservatives will hate this movie, because M&M is a liar. It is the swing votes of the ignorant masses that will be won over by this film. |
Are there really any swing votes left (besides on this forum)? |
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