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| What voting methods do you approve of? (This is an example of "Approval Voting") |
| Plurality Voting (1 person, 1 vote, Most votes wins) |
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31% |
[ 5 ] |
| Approval Voting (Each person selects every candidate he approves of) |
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31% |
[ 5 ] |
| Condorcet Voting (Similar to "Approval", but you numerically rank each of your choices) |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| Bucklin Voting (Uses Plurality first, unless nobody has a Majority. Then adds 2nd choices, then 3rd if necessary) |
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12% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Voted : 11 |
| Total Votes : 16 |
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Big Brother
Administrator

Post #29
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2872
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Posted: Mon 2004-02-16 04:34
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| Politics: Anarcho-syndicalist |
Country: Oceania |
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| Plurality Voting vs. Approval Voting |
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Somebody on the old board posted:
“While the media coverage of third parties diminishes alternative voices, it is ultimately the single-member pluralists elections (winner take all) that reduces our elections to two parties. The framework of the Constitution seems to have been designed to eliminate "radical" voices from politics in the country. An alternative election system and various other reforms are about all that we could do to give third parties a chance. “
I couldn’t agree more. About.com recently had an article about this same subject. From the article...
“Plurality voting is one big reason we have only two major parties, and plurality voting is manipulatable and has other serious flaws. This begs the question: Is plurality voting really majority rule?”
This has long been fodder for conspiracy theorist, since it provides an easy way for “them” to fix elections. It works like this ... our country has two major parties ... whoever gets the most votes wins ... So, if you run a candidate with similar views to a candidate from one of the major parties, you will cost that candidate votes and allow the OTHER guy to win.
The question of "what if" comes up every tme a 3rd party or independant gets more than 1% of the vote. You have John Anderson helping Reagan to win, Ross Perot helping Bill Clinton defeat Bush Sr. in 1992 and helping him to stay in office in 1996, and Ralph Nader taking enough Gore votes to put Bush over the top in 2000.
But there is an easy way to put a stop this.
The About.com article goes on to describe other methods of voting, namely “Condorcet voting” and “Approval voting”. I can say that after reading this article, I am now an ardent support of “Approval Voting”. Under such a system, each voter would cast a vote for each candidate he approves of. So for instance, given the choice between Gore, Bush, and Nader, a Nader supporter would be allowed to cast a vote for Nader AND Gore. This way, left-leaning individuals would no longer have to choose between the two candidates on “their side”. Each voter cast a vote for every candidate they "approve" of, and whoever gets the most votes wins.
So, if you suppose that most Nader supporters would prefer Gore to Bush, Al Gore would today be our president.
Well, maybe. Because if you were to go back in time to the election of 1992 and institute an “Approval Voting” system, George Bush Sr. would have beat out Clinton/Gore and retained his job. This is because that it has been estimated that at least two thirds of Perot supporters would have voted for Bush if Perot had not been on the Ballot. (In that election, Clinton received 43%, Bush Received 38%, and Perot received 19%. If you add 12% to Bush and 6% to Clinton you end up with Bush squeaking ahead of Clinton by 1% of the vote). Of course, if people knew that they could vote for Perot without “wasting their vote”, Perot would have undoubtedly received more votes as well. And this may have made people take him a little more seriously in 1996. But instead, Perot probably lost votes in 1996 because Republicans learned a lesson in 1992 and didn’t want to waste their vote again and end up with Clinton/Gore for another 4 years. (But they still lost anyway.)
The Center for Voting and Democracy has some good information on the folly of plurality voting as well.
http://www.fairvote.org/plurality/index.html
And actually, it may come as a surprise to some that a constitutional amendment would NOT be necessary to institute such a system. Elections are run by the States, so any state could easily switch over to an "approval" system with an act of its State legislature.
All the constitution says about the Presidential election is...
“Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.”
And for the House, it says...
“The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several States…”
The constitution merely says that an election needs to be held. It's up to each state to decide how to actually carry the elections out.
This "approval voting" method is a small change that would have a HUGE impact on the way elections are carried out, so LET’S GET TO IT! |
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Emmanuel Goldstein
Ignorant Prole
Post #38
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
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Posted: Tue 2004-02-17 22:23
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
Country: Eurasia |
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Given the dichotomy on offer, I cant understand why you would choose approval voting above concorcet voting. Under approval voting, candidates are divided into two camps - those you approve of and those you dont. There is no distinction between candidates within these camps, whereas concorcet voting seperates every single candidate in order of preference.
But it's still the lesser of two evils. I have no "right" to impress my will upon others, regardless of the accuracy of the system.  |
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Big Brother
Administrator

Post #39
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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Posted: Wed 2004-02-18 02:28
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| Politics: Anarcho-syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Sore loserman |
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| Emmanuel Goldstein wrote: |
| Given the dichotomy on offer, I cant understand why you would choose approval voting above concorcet voting. |
Yes... You are right. Concorcet is "better". And actually, there are others which are better. My favorite is the Bucklin Voting, which acts like Plurality voting unless no candidate wins a majority. Then it adds each person's "2nd choice" to see if that results in a majority. If not, it continues to add 3rd choice, 4th choice, etc until one of the candidates has more than 50%. Some people also call this method "Instant Run-off Voting". (Although there are several methods that are mild variances on this scheme)
Although “Approval Voting” is my favorite, it’s not that complete against some of these alternative methods. I just have some concerns.
One problem with it is the intelligence of the average American voter (they couldn't figure out a “butterfly ballot”, so how can we expect them to understand this?). But I am not completely against the idea. I would "approve" of this method if it was done in a way that easy for people to follow.
Another concern is the fact that a Concorcet system would most likely be computerized (which to me opens the door to fraud). But then again, it is probably just as easy for somebody to slip some extra votes in under our current punch-card system as well. So if I could be convinced that this computerized method offered more safeguards against fraud, I would probably support it as well.
And in any case, ANY of these methods is preferable than the current system, which allows people who don't even have a majority to be elected to office. (I mean, it is interesting to note that both Clinton and Hitler came to power with only 43% of the vote) And now that I think about, almost all of our presidents in recent years have been elected by a minority… and I think it’s time to change that.
And the main reason is that such systems allow 3rd parties to run without comepletely screwing everything up. I just don't ever want to have to go through this again...
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carldiesturmer
Filthy Animal

Post #148
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1
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Average words per post: 455
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Posted: Tue 2004-02-24 11:04
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| Politics: Anarcho-capitalist |
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| dittohead, let's play the game |
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...
Last edited by carldiesturmer on Fri 2008-05-23 05:22; edited 1 time in total |
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Big Brother
Administrator

Post #150
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2872
Total Words: 1,134,593
Average words per post: 395.05
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Posted: Tue 2004-02-24 11:20
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| Politics: Anarcho-syndicalist |
Country: American Empire |
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| Re: dittohead, let's play the game |
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| carldiesturmer wrote: |
| In this case we rather have Pat Buchanan... |
Yeah... at least he'd probably do something about that "atzlan" thing.
Apart from that, Buchanan is kind of a jerk. But at least you know that he always speaks his mind, and doesn't formulate his words to appease the special interests. |
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